12-03-2002 02:45									#1
	No room for civility any more? Remove this text

A long time ago (at least, as measured in "computer time" I was a newbie on this forum.

One of the things that drew me to the place was the fact that no matter how many times newbies like me asked the same question over and over again, we always got a polite, complete answer.

In short, it was a fantastic place to be. A place of learning and discovery....a place to meet friends and discuss....anything.

That was really cool.

A forum is made up of, and characterized by the quality of the people who post in it. If you have good, generous, kind hearted, patient people, you'll get a good, generous, kind hearted, patient board. If you have mindless, foul-mouthed boors posting, then the board itself will begin to take on those characteristics, which will, in the long term, serve to drive people away.

Lately, unless my eyes deceive me, it seems we're seeing a relatively higher percentage of boorish posts at the expense of the more patient and thoughtful variety, and that's too bad.

It's too bad for us, because it helps to distroy the fabric of this place, and it's too bad for the owners of the board, who rely on traffic here to generate funds that keep it running.

As for me, I would rather not see the trend continue. I would rather see a board where people can talk about stuff (even if it's for the millionth time) and disagree without having to resort to petty name calling.

I remember when it was so, and it can be so again.

Or...not?

-=Vel=-
PS: Everybody slips. Everybody loses their temper. It happens. But more and more lately, I keep seeing posts cropping up that are well beyond simply "losing your temper" for a minute or two. It saddens me, cos this used to be a really cool board.

It's not quite as cool anymore. Nor as friendly to new posters, who don't DARE ask a question for fear of getting treatment like I've seen here today.

-V.

	12-03-2002 02:56									#2
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Very intereasing thuoghts, even if they aren't exactly Civ3 topic...

As the forum grows (yes, we've been over 18000 member for a month now) the number o newbie question grows, and people get tired of writing the same replies over and over again. To make the life easier they try to refeere somewhere (an earlier post or a page in tha manual) so that theywon't have to write a very long reply over and over again. When writing dhort replies you easaly make tham a bit hard, as you can't make them personal. Also doing the exact same thing over and over again tires the posters. I'm not a vet as old as you, but I belive that the people weren't as many back then, and the new users registering would not be very many every day.

I'm not sure, but I think that the increased difference in users registered the different times can have an effect on this. Also the newbies will fell as if every old vets knows each other, and feel very unsure. the bigger the group is the harder to get into it.

	12-03-2002 03:04									#3
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Vel,

I know what you mean. I registered here because this was, at least at the time, the best site for discussion of Civ (then, Civ II, and anticipation of Civ III). Posts like those found in Zylka's thread (95 reasons civ III sucks or something like that) really detract from the value of the forum.

I applaud your effort to stop it (which failed miserably, I'm sad to say) and your effort to bring up the topic of civility in general. Unfortunately, there are just too many people who cannot disagree without anger.

-Arrian

	12-03-2002 03:07									#4
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Thank you Gramphos...and as to why I elected to start this thread here, rather than in Civ3 Community....it's because here in this place, is where I've been seeing a steady increase in flame fests and foul language that quite simply drives people away.

That's too bad.

I agree with you, btw, that when I was a newbie over on the SMAC board, there weren't quite so many posters total (13,000 or so), but in SMAC's day, the posts were coming on that forum every bit as fast and furious as they were coming in here....and that stream had a lot more longevity to it, too. Notice the relative lack of posts in Civ3 Strat? Oh sure, there ARE posts there every day...but not nearly as many as you'd expect for a game that's only been out a short while.

Anyway...was just reading today here in Civ3 general, and saw things that made me realize again, that not all change is good.

-=Vel=-

	12-03-2002 03:09									#5
	Inflate your Upload Space

Thanks Arrian, and it appears that you are quite right. A pity, really, because if everybody here was in full agreement all the time, then this would not be a very interesting place at all. It is when we disagree and debate that things get REALLY interesting. It's just too bad that we seem to be attracting an increasing number of posters who think it's cool to see how many profanities they can squeeze into a single post.

-=Vel=-

	12-03-2002 03:10									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Let me throw my two cents worth in here. Attitude reflects leadership and if this place is starting to stink maybe, just maybe, the facist tone set by at least one of the moderators is a factor.

for now

ha ha

but maybe not for long

	12-03-2002 03:13									#7
	Inflate your Upload Space

Point taken, JT...but, to use myself as an example, my posting style remains the same, regardless of the actions of the Moderators...yours too, from what I have seen...which is a good thing, btw! So we, collectively, set the tone that the forums take.

Right now, that tone leaves something to be desired, which was one of the main reasons I started this thread. To post in it, and do my part to restore a little civility here.

I can try...

-=Vel=-

	12-03-2002 03:16									#8
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Some of the unfortunate posts you're talking about, Vel, are the result of boredom. If there is an interesting topic up for discussion, people will pay attention to that, and largely ignore the flame war crew. Without an audience, the flame wars die out pretty quickly. On the other hand, if there isn't much good discussion going on, there is a vacuum... and the vacuum gets filled with... dirt.

-Arrian

	12-03-2002 03:18									#9
	Increase Your PM Length

Well, Vel, I can only say that you are correct, that little outbreak today was digusting. We all should try to restrain ourselves and behave in a way that at least resembles human decency.

Or, at least, try to couch our insults in sarcasim or humor. How much creativity does it take to call someone's mother a name like that?

Pathetic.

	12-03-2002 03:19									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick Let me throw my two cents worth in here. Attitude reflects leadership and if this place is starting to stink maybe, just maybe, the facist tone set by at least one of the moderators is a factor. for now ha ha but maybe not for long

How would this be a factor? If you have a problem with at least one moderator....talk to that moderator, don't take it out on everyone else. I am a newbie here, but I have been playing Civ games since the beginning on an Amiga, I don't really come here for help, but I do come here for DISCUSSION, which is really hampered by flaming newbie and so forth.How about a flame thread that can just be refered to instead of flames on the normal "help me" threads. A couple extra seconds of typing can't be that hard. Besides swearing doesn't make a point if you do it all the time.....Save it for when it REALLY makes your point....da*n it.

	12-03-2002 03:21									#11
	Suffering from ads?

An outstanding point, brother Arrian.

I think that too then, speaks *volumes* about the game whose name this forum bears.

That there are relatively few interesting topics left to discuss would seem to imply a relative lack of depth and replayability. That the boredom sets in at all would seem proof positive of the claims that many naysayers have been making.

Or...perhaps it's something else entirely. Just checked the calendar, so I know it's not the full moon, but...I dunno guy....if there's boredom in the Civ3 forums, then that boredom has got to have a reason....least that's my thinking on it.

-=Vel=-

	12-03-2002 03:21									#12
	Tired of ads?

as the number of people in a place increase, the number of people that are *******s in that place also increases. a portion of the non-******* people will be put off by the *******s and depart, resulting not only in a larger number of *******s, but a larger percentage of them as well.

	12-03-2002 03:23									#13
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\_/

Round of drinks then, for Arrian, JT, Gramphos and everybody else who'd like to see a bit of civility return to the boards.

We can make it happen guys....one post at a time we can...

-=Vel=-

	12-03-2002 03:24									#14
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Tuberski,

Why are you grinding your axe on my head?

jt

	12-03-2002 03:25									#15
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I've found the files, creation, and strategy forums really nice. I've asked a lot of questions and gotten some pretty good & detailed answers, but I don't mind if someone refers me to another thread that already answers my questions. That's just as good. So my experience here has been pretty good.

What I find really interesting is that some people are really helpful and kind in one thread but then have an ugly side in another.

Maybe we should all step back and get some perspective. It's game. A game with a lot of depth by implication. Most arguments are worth discussing and we can learn a lot from disagreement, but it's not really worth getting into fights over. At that point, we usually stop thinking.

I blame a lot on personal pride. Pride makes us incapable of seeing things from someone else' view, or of admitting a mistake. We are unable to see how someone else might read our writing and think our interpretation is the only valid and obvious one. Then things get uglier and uglier, sometimes from just a simple misunderstanding. We think we are owed something and when we don't get it, we feel it's our right to be angry & demand an apology without giving one first.

Part of a solution may be to think for a moment before posting a reply, and also trying to give the benefit of the doubt. Don't drag in a past reputation to affect the current thread debate.

We should also respond to help received with some thanks or appreciation. Perhaps some people get tired of helping without thanks. We are not owed answers. Those are gifts from helpful people and we should be appropriately thankful and give credit where due.

Just my 99 cents.

	12-03-2002 03:25									#16
	Re: No room for civility any more? Support Apolyton

*Applauds Vel's call for civility and general attempt to restore order*

quote: Originally posted by Velociryx PS: Everybody slips. Everybody loses their temper. It happens. But more and more lately, I keep seeing posts cropping up that are well beyond simply "losing your temper" for a minute or two. It saddens me, cos this used to be a really cool board. -V.

Actually, it's quite understandable. Poster A makes a slightly annoying post. You respond with a critical response because of your annoyance. They respond in anger. You read their post, and your blood boils, so you flame. They respond likewise, upping the ante again. So on, so forth.

Although I personally find that after they up the ante once to my annoyance, all anger and such drops completely out of my system, and it becomes a quest to see how much I can ratchet it up for the fun of it. Sometimes you can feel their veins swell and bllod boil. Needling someone until they burst is a fine art.

	12-03-2002 03:29									#17
	Tired of ads?

Thanks for answering the call guys....Captain, Fitz...I agree with you both. But that there are people posting here...posting civilly here....this tells me that we don't have to let the boors and trolls take over....and that's very good to see...

-=Vel=-

	12-03-2002 03:32									#18
	Tired of ads?

Look, when you have a moderator who deems himself an "internet celebrity" and works hard to enhance his self image by suspending people just to make a name for himself, then you have a problem. How can you maintain a civil attitude with moderators like that?

I mean, when a moderator boots someone and then follows then to OTHER FORUMS to BRAG ABOUT IT, and basks in the negative image he has created for himself, then it would logically follow that the forum he is responsible for is going to have problems.

But, this is old news and I am grinding my axe cause his recently fell on my neck.

I think fascist is the correct spelling by the way.

jt

	12-03-2002 03:35									#19
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Hey...I thought you and I were the only internet celebs, JT!?



-=Vel=-

	12-03-2002 03:37									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

No, you are the celeb... I am the boorish troll.

	12-03-2002 03:40									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Not a chance, bud! c'mon down and we'll half drown ourselves in tequila drinks, flirt with all the ladies, and scare the bejesus out of all the guys in the place....

-=Vel=-

	12-03-2002 03:51									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick Tuberski, Why are you grinding your axe on my head? jt

Sorry Jimmy. Forgive me, for one thing I just figured out what going on vacation to Mingapulco was, so I do understand what you are saying....please forgive me.

	12-03-2002 03:52									#23
	Re: No room for civility any more? Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Lately, unless my eyes deceive me, it seems we're seeing a relatively higher percentage of boorish posts at the expense of the more patient and thoughtful variety, and that's too bad. -V.

Polite questions 'why does.. ' get similar responses

Irate rants 'this is stupid ...' ditto

Unfortunately the rants mostly don't come from newbies but from those who should know better

	12-03-2002 03:59									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Sadly, I've seen an increase in the cases where polite questions from new posters are answered with things like "Read the F***ing manual, newbie scum!" (well, minus the "scum" part anyways). And these replies have, from what I've seen, come from relative newcomers themselves.

Still, you're right in that the posters who have been here a while have also contributed their fair share.

It's not about not being negative tho....IMO. Again, I'd stress the point that if I don't like something, and come down on it (IT...not a particular person, and not resorting to name calling), then you can defend it, we can disagree, and do so without it resorting to a flamefest.

I've seen that happen, so I know it can.

Lately, it hasn't been happening as often tho.

-=Vel=-

	12-03-2002 04:04									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Velociryx An outstanding point, brother Arrian. I think that too then, speaks *volumes* about the game whose name this forum bears. That there are relatively few interesting topics left to discuss would seem to imply a relative lack of depth and replayability. That the boredom sets in at all would seem proof positive of the claims that many naysayers have been making. Or...perhaps it's something else entirely. Just checked the calendar, so I know it's not the full moon, but...I dunno guy....if there's boredom in the Civ3 forums, then that boredom has got to have a reason....least that's my thinking on it. -=Vel=-

I just *knew* you would say something like that. I, for one, remain enthusiastic about discussing the game - which is still evolving. Your input is missed.

A round of drinks? Who's buying?

-Arrian

	12-03-2002 04:04									#26
	Increase the size of your Attachments

The manual is part of the problem I think, It isn't organized very well nor does it explain things to my satisfaction.

OTOH I didn't even read the manuals for the Civ, Civ 2, SMAC, SMAX etc... the game was fairly intuitive, couldn't really do that with this game right off.

And yes I have gotten bored with it, but I got bored with the rest of the games as well...except one.

	12-03-2002 04:07									#27
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

oh and I did have a thread moved because I was talking about that other game and some of the uses thing in it that could have made Civ 3 more enjoyable, but people started talking about the other game and well....it was moved.

Didn't like it but what can I do?

	12-03-2002 04:08									#28
	Tired of ads?

Normally... I would move this thread to the Apolyton Community forum... where discussions of this type belong.

However, it has been suggested that this problem is really restricted to this Specific Forum... And, anybody that knows the other Civ III forums would probably agree.

So I'm going to leave it here for now. MarkG may move it... his choice. But I think it's relevent here...

Oh... and jimmytrick...

quote: But, this is old news and I am grinding my axe cause his recently fell on my neck.

Yep... that sums it up. I have no problems if you want to continue to make personal attacks at me... Just limit them to me, and not other members of this site.

	12-03-2002 04:14									#29
	Inflate your Upload Space

By the Mingster:

quote: I have no problems if you want to continue to make personal attacks at me...

Thanks, but for the record, should these future attacks be posted here or on the Community forum?

jt

	12-03-2002 04:18									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick By the Mingster: Thanks, but for the record, should these future attacks be posted here or on the Community forum? jt

ROFL Good question!