13-03-2002 00:37									#1
	Is the game broken or not? Tired of ads?

I posted the following on another thread. Those of you who have started and played far enough with v 1.17f please chime in and tell us what you have seen.

quote: Fact: Soren increased the penalty for whipping and drafting to prevent human players from exploiting it. This was released without testing! The result was that he managed to cripple his beloved AI, which now self-destructs in communist induced starvation. This may be realistic, hehe, but the result is that lots of people are out here playing (beta testing) are feeling pretty fed up when they invest all that time and find the AI is DOA at the middle of the industrial age. Now, that is fact and not opinion. The law of unintended consequences caught up to Soren. That is a fact. It is a sad state of affairs. Fact. So, why shouldn't I state it as fact.

	13-03-2002 00:45									#2
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The AI has always hurt itself by going communist, even before 1.17, but it is worse now, due to the 40 turns of unhappiness from whipping and/or drafting and the cumulative nature of that unhappiness. The AI will in fact wreak its cities drafting and whipping when your (or another AI's) troops get within 2 squares.

There has been some discussion as to whether the poprush fix may have gone too far, and maybe, now that the effects are cumulative (like they were always supposed to be), 20 turns is better than 40.

I don't think this necessarily "breaks" the game, but it's an issue. Unfortunately, the exploit this fix was supposed to close is actually still there, although it is more difficult (the pop1 taxman city with captured workers "feeding" it in order to rush troops).

-Arrian

	13-03-2002 00:58									#3
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communism and tech devaluations are broken but the game is not, it is still playable

i think soren need to pull the forced labor penalty back down to 20 turns and make the citizen value in shields 25 so communism can actually rush from time to time, along with closing the size one city pop rush exploit and fixing tech trading (so that buying isn't the best way to go) we'd be doing ok

oh yea
might as well fix armies while they're at it

hey jt have you tried any mods? i know you are less than thrilled with civ3, so i would love to see if the blitz mod could change your mind any

	13-03-2002 01:14									#4
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korn469....

I tend to stay away from mods when a game is still under development. I will give it a whirl later on.

I have a hard time considering the game playable when I can give an AI 100 coin or something similarly inconsequential for an MPP and then declare war from another continent and watch the AI self destruct in self induced starvation. But, maybe thats me.

I have to hand it to Arrian and korn469. These are two people whose posts should be required reading. (though I don't always agree!).

jt

	13-03-2002 01:36									#5
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick I have to hand it to Arrian and korn469. These are two people whose posts should be required reading. (though I don't always agree!). jt

:awkward bow:

	13-03-2002 03:44									#6
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I agree that the 1.17 patch broke the game.

Prepatch tech research was worth doing on monarch and below at least. Dunno about higher levels. Now it isn't worth attempting at all until the AI self destructs in the industrial age.

We should at least be able to pop rush w/o wasting a city for the rest of the game. Even cities taken from the AI in the ancient era many times are worthless for the remainder of the game.

Any word on possible fixes that firaxis is considering?

	13-03-2002 03:49									#7
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I don't know but they are supposed to have testers now and I hope they will use them.

Is that too much to hope for?

	13-03-2002 03:53									#8
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I hope they use 'em too, even if I didn't make the cut, apparently....that's okay...if they'd rather have me as a competitor....I can live with that...

-=Vel=-
(not that they're exactly shakin' in their boots or anything, but...::grin:: the game has only just begun!)

PS: JT's right....Arrian and Korn are OUTSTANDING voices in the community. New posters...if you're reading here for the first time, I promise you this, if you read posts by those two, you can bet they'll be well considered and informative (there are a good number of others I could say the same about, but since those two names were brought to the fore here, I wanted to second that opinion!)

	13-03-2002 04:10									#9
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Vel,

You didn't make the playtest team, huh? That's unfortunate... I would've thought you were a shoe-in, since a Firaxian specifically requested that you apply.

Thanks, by the way. Of course, just about anyone here thinks the same of you.

-Arrian

	13-03-2002 05:08									#10
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::wistful sigh:: Nope...apparently I did not make the cut for the beta testing team....from what I'm reading here, the team has already been formed up, and I've heard nary a peep, so...I'm assuming I'm out.

That's okay though. While I must admit to having looked forward to the work, the fact is that, I would not be gearing up my own little computer game company were it not for Civ3 being released in the state it was in....for it was those early debates that prompted me to do so. In a way then, the folk of Firaxis created the notion that eventually became Velocigames, and regardless of the ultimate outcome of our little upstart venture, I will always be grateful for that.

Life is a strange tapestry sometimes. Pull out one stitch here, cut one thread there, and it may not appear so on the surface, but it resonates out and effects the tapestry as a whole.

In an odd way then, I'm rather glad things have worked out as they have. I have my company, still have my second home here, and I DO still enjoy discussing the game....I'm happy enough with all of that, and we shall see what else the future holds....

-=Vel=-

	13-03-2002 05:08									#11
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PS to Arrian: Now you've got ME doing that....but thank you!

-=Vel=-

	13-03-2002 05:23									#12
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I think that this game is just "sprained". There are quite a lot of good concepts in it. I just think that it was rushed and not tested properly. As for the things I don't like I use the editor.


For example communism pop rush, pop rush is a good idea but we know how they patched it and the result on the AI, so for now try making communism despised by all the other civs. Not a great solution but it may make the game a little better. Civ's shouldn't pop-rushing themselves to dust because they will never be communist.
Am I correct on this?

This of course is only a temporary solution until the next patch...

	13-03-2002 06:16									#13
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I am playtesting the game. That makes me a beta tester. Tuberski and other modders are using the editor to fix the beta. Beta fixers?

I haven't touched the editor and steadfastly refuse to do so until the game is developed. Then, I will take a stab at it.

I am going to say something good about Firaxis. Somebody better jot down the date and time. I see a little spark of talent here and there in this game and I would not be surprised to see these folks turn out a killer game somewhere down the line.

	13-03-2002 06:43									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx ::wistful sigh:: Nope...apparently I did not make the cut for the beta testing team....from what I'm reading here, the team has already been formed up, and I've heard nary a peep, so...I'm assuming I'm out. That's okay though. While I must admit to having looked forward to the work, the fact is that, I would not be gearing up my own little computer game company were it not for Civ3 being released in the state it was in....for it was those early debates that prompted me to do so. In a way then, the folk of Firaxis created the notion that eventually became Velocigames, and regardless of the ultimate outcome of our little upstart venture, I will always be grateful for that. Life is a strange tapestry sometimes. Pull out one stitch here, cut one thread there, and it may not appear so on the surface, but it resonates out and effects the tapestry as a whole. In an odd way then, I'm rather glad things have worked out as they have. I have my company, still have my second home here, and I DO still enjoy discussing the game....I'm happy enough with all of that, and we shall see what else the future holds.... -=Vel=-

Jesus Christ! What the hell are you smoking?

	13-03-2002 07:23									#15
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MOHonor.....nahhhh....not worth it. Nevermind.

-=Vel=-
(being steadfastly civil)

	13-03-2002 07:52									#16
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I think, MOHonor, he is smoking the peace pipe.

Pass it 'round, Vel...

	13-03-2002 07:58									#17
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-=Vel=-

	13-03-2002 12:56									#18
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick I am playtesting the game. That makes me a beta tester. Tuberski and other modders are using the editor to fix the beta. Beta fixers? I haven't touched the editor and steadfastly refuse to do so until the game is developed. Then, I will take a stab at it. I am going to say something good about Firaxis. Somebody better jot down the date and time. I see a little spark of talent here and there in this game and I would not be surprised to see these folks turn out a killer game somewhere down the line.

JT,

Does this mean that if you become really good at testing the game you're a master beta tester?

Remind me NOT to use your keyboard.

Og

	13-03-2002 16:41									#20
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Why not make a poll out of it?

Regarding despised form of government:
In my Emperor games the A.I.s chose always(even the Americans or Brits) Communism sooner or later after its invention. Even small countries which probably would benefit from Monarchy become Communist ones.
The game is not broken, the A.I. plays just a bad strategy.

	14-03-2002 01:46									#21
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...Or Sid is a commie, and trying to indoctrinate us all with Marxist philosophy!

(Or not...)