03-01-2001 10:25									#1
	wonders realism and peaceful civs - some thoughts Get a bigger avatar today!

On the one hand wonders in civ2 are generally unrealistic and are "too powerful" A more "realistic" game would have fewer wonders and those available would be less decisive.

BUT - given the power of espionage, and the conquest of a tech when even a minor city is taken, it can be very difficult for a scientifically advanced peaceful civ to beat a fundy warmonger. The fact that said peaceful civ can use its advanced techs to build powerful wonders in the brief interval before the tech is stolen tends therefore to balance the game against the fundy warmongers. ANY weakening of wonders MUST take this into account.

Thoughts, comments?

	05-01-2001 06:29									#2
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The thing that wonders represent is specialization in cities; i.e. specialization of resources, they are wildcards in the game. And thus their power is fully explained.

	05-01-2001 19:35									#3
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Concur with both your views... to an extent. As usual the best path may be a balance.

It is true they are "wildcards" since they do give special advantages & flexibilites however, they are not instant nor free. It takes time & resources that could otherwise be used on somthing else.

Which is why they create 1 more tradeoff decision & THAT is what makes this (or any game) a classic... there are SO MANY different ways to go.... many of which are mutually exclusive.

On the other hand they may be OVERDONE in their exclusivity & power.
Keeping in mind real world programming constraints + continuing what is possible of the 3rd generation of this Classic:
I suggest either a few MORE to spread around or/&
adjusting present one's time of effectiveness both +/-.

Another alternative would be to have somthing like a "1st & 2nd place reward"...
1st civ the achieved it got full power, but rather than stop everything & TOTALLY screw others that were rushing for that wonder...
2nd place would get a reduced level of benefit from it... for the same cost, however.
THINK that thru to all the tradeoff's alternatives, fairness, interest level that could increase?!

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"Hm-m-m, doubt me you will?"

	16-01-2001 05:42									#4
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When I play Civ, my favorite trick is to 'hang back' and play the game as an expansionist, but peaceful civ. This gives me scope for massive scientific advancement.

I find if you can keep at least two of the most advanced defensive units you can build in each of your cities, and have all the latest defensive city upgrades, you can hold off all ham-fisted attempts to attack you indefinitely.

OK, the Wonders in Civ II were very unrealistic and too powerful, but that's just one of the quirks of Civ. Also ask yourself: Why am I able to live the 6000-odd years from start to finish of each game!!

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Josef Given
josefgiven@hotmail.com

	16-01-2001 09:17									#5
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I don't think you can't play as a pacificist and win. Sure, Civ in many ways is a thinly disguised wargame, but being a pacificist doesn't mean you are a push over.

First, you can build defensive units. Put a couple of your best defenders behind city walls and they become nigh impossible to take.

Second, build some light and fast units to kill of enemy spies.

Third, practice mobile defense. When you see an enemy catapult lumbering towards you, send a chariot off to toast it.

Forth, use your own spies. Subvert his cities. Incite riots.

	17-01-2001 16:21									#6
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Civ II corrected some of Civ I's shortcomings in the context of wonders and realism. In Civ I, you could discover Masonry, build the Pyramids, make a revolution and rule a democracy thousands of years before you actually discovered what Democracy was. Now that has nothing to do with specialization or anyting... Civ II brought a more logical system, and yet Civ III would develop that even further. And yet, with wonders, we have to neglect historical accuracy. You can sail around the globe with a ship to get Magellan's Expedition, but what about the Pyramids which I like seeing so much in Civ games? Is the computer going to scan through all players to spot the exact political-religious circumstances that existed back at the time in Egypt?

No need to worry
[This message has been edited by bagdar (edited January 18, 2001).]