13-03-2002 01:06									#1
	Should I install the patch? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I am playing an enjoyable game in 1.07f right now (crazy combat results notwithstanding, eg. regular spearman defeats attacking elite knights, twice). I have read that the patch accelerates the tech progression to the extreme, which I would not like. Can anyone give me a good reason to install the current 1.17f patch?

Thanks...

	13-03-2002 01:11									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=42881

Read this.

	13-03-2002 01:13									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Hey jared, that's my thread!

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=42881

hehehehe, he's right, read it.

Spec.

	13-03-2002 02:27									#4
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Cato,

Some people like 1.17, some people don't. Others (like me) love most of the changes/fixes, but have issues with one or two things.

1.17 is very different from 1.07, as there was an intermediate step (1.16).

Most people like the new stacked movement command ("j")
Pollution control is easier, and worker automation ("shift+a") is better.
UU's are now fully within the upgrade paths (so you can upgrade from a warrior to a legionary, for instance).

Soren has also messed with the AI, and it will now do some things it didn't do before (some of this has been specifically stated, some of it is based upon my observations):

-The AI will use bombard units offensively.
-The AI is better about upgrading its units.
-The AI appears to be more aggresive when fighting across the ocean (I've seen it drop off full transports of Tanks).
-The AI has been reprogrammed to trade tech for whatever it's worth, immediately. Tech devaluation is such that this basically means all of the AI's have the tech the same turn it is discovered. The human can buy it cheaply, too, although on higher levels there is a penalty due to the AI's research advantage (it's kinda complex, check out the AI vs. AI tech trading thread). This has resulted in some complaints... it does make sure the AI keeps up, as opposed to falling hopelessly behind by the Industrial Age.
-Despot rushing has been fixed. Basically, prior to 1.17, it didn't work the way it was intended. Cumulative unhappiness didn't work (if you rushed twice, there should be 2 unhappy people as a result, but the 2nd one would be consumed by the rush.). Now, repeated rushing pretty much creates FUBAR cities (f'd up beyond all repair), especially because the unhappiness penalty is now 40 turns, instead of 20. Some are upset with this, too, even if they don't use poprushing, because the AI will wreak itself as a communist gov't in wartime.

There is more, but I'll leave it to you to check out the 1.17 readme and other threads about the patch.

-Arrian

	13-03-2002 12:49									#5
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Arrian -The AI has been reprogrammed to trade tech for whatever it's worth, immediately. Tech devaluation is such that this basically means all of the AI's have the tech the same turn it is discovered. The human can buy it cheaply, too, although on higher levels there is a penalty due to the AI's research advantage (it's kinda complex, check out the AI vs. AI tech trading thread). This has resulted in some complaints... it does make sure the AI keeps up, as opposed to falling hopelessly behind by the Industrial Age.

I myself don't like this. It makes the AI act as one instead of as seven (or whatever). I liked the fact that some civs were further along than me and that some lagged behind. Sometimes you could rally to a weak civs cause and take on a more powerful civ. Sometimes you could pick or gang up on a weaker civ. It added a little something.
Now everybody's the same. It's as if you're attacking one big civ that chances unit colours every now and again. I find it really boring. The something is lacking and I miss it.
But that's the only bad thing in 1.17 I've noticed. The 'j' command
is very useful, but I don't really use the sentry command (yet). More intelligent use of tactics by the AI is always good.

Robert

	13-03-2002 17:34									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I don't like the 1.17f patch for the reasons Arrian stated (and the goodie hut madness.) It's a shame because I would appreciate the improvements they have introduced. Civ 3 is off my play list at the moment waiting to see if it ever gets an editor able to tweak such ideas as tech trading and pop rushing to suit individual playing styles. If it doesn't then I'll probably stick to 1.16f if I ever get round to playing again.

	13-03-2002 19:22									#7
	Suffering from ads?

If I were you I wouldn't wait to install the patch, the patch really improves the game BIG TIME!

	14-03-2002 06:25									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I like the new patch. I aggree the tech trading is a bit exessive. Its now really hard to keep a tech lead of any significance. The rest of the changes are very nice. Unless you pop rush like a demon of course.

The AI may be loading a trasports with tanks but one transport is still hopless in the tank era. The AI still can't run an overseas invasion to save its data.

At least get the previous patch 1.16f. That one fixes some real problems with the air defense.

Personally I think the Shift-A command alone is worth the tech trading execesses.

	14-03-2002 06:38									#9
	Re: Should I install the patch? Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Cato I am playing an enjoyable game in 1.07f right now (crazy combat results notwithstanding, eg. regular spearman defeats attacking elite knights, twice). I have read that the patch accelerates the tech progression to the extreme, which I would not like. Can anyone give me a good reason to install the current 1.17f patch?

Nope. The only thing good about the patch is stack movement, of a sort.

1.17 is

I'm back to 1.16. Actually, I'm back even more to Civ II.

	14-03-2002 18:57									#10
	Got spare money?

I'd probably say to hold off for a bit and try 1.16. 1.16 took care of a lot of bad bugs but right now, 1.17 has pretty much just fubarred the game. I keep on wanting to give it another chance to see if maybe I'm just giving it a bum rap.

Here are my impressions:

- Stacked movement is cool although I haven't played enough to the point where it is fantastic. The end-game is still tedious and stack movement makes it slightly better

- The new worker movements are much, much better. I can't say that I agree with the choice of having only 2 workers try to clean up pollution but the fact that the workers sleep is great. Plus, the shift-A command works fairly decent most of the time

- Pop-rushing is firmly neutered. I didn't really use it before but the AI doesn't really know how to deal with it. When the AI gets to Communism, it starves itself down an empire of 1 population cities. As a result, don't capture cities, raze them and plant new settlers unless you want 1 population entertainer cities for the rest of the game.

- The tech trading is abysmal and in my opinion a show stopper. It is simply intolerable and really gives the feeling of a human vs. the world. The last few games I have been playing a large map so it is myself vs. an 11 headed AI beast. Definitely not cool.

Just a bit of FYI, last night I was playing as the French (I'm in France, I had to try). I was on a continent by myself, crap, filled it up and started exploring. Found the Chinese finally and the Indians. Cool. They knew nobody else so techs were reasonable. I could research and trade and life was good. Everybody was about the same pace. I had the Lighthouse and found the Persians. Fairly close to me still. Found the Aztecs, yada, yada. Traded some maps and some tech. Gave communications around, bam, coolness of game went south. The AI transformed from individual entities to an 11 headed beast. Case in point, the Aztecs had nothing and were isolated on an island. I gave them communications and in one turn, they passed me in tech to being 3 techs ahead. They had 400 gold but the bargain basement effect allowed them to clean up. Now, the crappy part is that I couldn't buy all of those techs for anywhere near 400 gold (Education, Feudalism, etc.). I had just tired a couple of turns previous. WTF? Not cool at all. Which level was I playing, Warlord, not Deity. I wanted a fun game but I just got frustration.

Pardon this rant but it seems with the 1.17 patch, the game took a huge step back. I know that I could switch to Republic, cut all Science to 0, and buy all of my tech from the bargain bin. To me, that is no fun whatsoever. I want to build a big empire and keep up researching scientifically. I can do that against individual civs, I can't do that against 11 other civs.

Why can't the value of the tech not drop off so quickly? If I am a backward civ, I should have to pay the fat dollar for tech, not just pick it up off the bargain bin 10 turns later. Make it so the AI actually wants to have a tech lead against other AIs, not just against the human player. I actually preferred 1.16's trading system (during the turn) much better than the 1.17 feature.

I'm just hoping MOO3 doesn't turn out like Civ3 does. Civ3 had so much promise and is getting better over time but it still has the alpha/beta feel to it like it should have been released about 3 months from now. MOO3 looks to be much better planned out though so I have high hopes. Till then, I guess I'll wrap some of my old games with occasional Civ3 games.