13-03-2002 06:25									#1
	Nuclear Strategy Full PM-box? Change here!

I've been playing with the Romans on a huge map for the past month or so and I've gotten to the point where I've got about 40% of the world's power rating and about half of it's culture. I've got an empire of about 60 cities, with an army of about 30 modern armor, 2 mech infantry in every city as well as 1 mech infantry in forts on every other square around my coast for defense against invasions, as well as about 30 mech infantry that are stockpiled ready to fortify enemy cities once they're conquered. I've also got about 10 stealth bombers, some artillery that are fortified in a few cities for defensive purposes, and numerous roman legionary in forts throughout the land for defense. So my armed forces are pretty solid, the question is however, should I use nuclear missles and how? I've got about 5 cities that can produce an ICBM in 4 turns, so I should be able to crank out quite a few. The question is should I use them. My civ is on the northern part of a huge continent with the Babylonians on the south. Our border is at about half the continent, where we both took our share of land from the conquered Greeks. My strategy with the nukes would be to take out the Babylonian capital and then to take out any large deposits of resources the Babylonians have. For instance, dropping a nuke on a group of gem squares destroys all the roads to the gems and takes away that resources until the roads are rebuilt. Is that a good strategy? Another problem I have (since I did a test run) is that once I drop the initial nuke all the other civilizations gang up on me. This isn't much of a problem since all the other civs are either too weak or too far away to do any damage. It does however give me the option of using my ICBM's on other civs too, so I use my strategy of "take out the capital, then the resources" with all the other civs. So far I haven't played enough turns to see the effects on the other civilization, since I haven't seen their citizens revolting or anything, but I'm guessing it'll work. What do you think?

	13-03-2002 07:55									#2
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I was seemingly in the same position as you almost. I'll give you my scenario, and what I did...

Martha's world map, 13 civs (13 civs still exsisting that is, 3 are gone). Raced for all Nuclear Technologies (and got them while most nations still hadn't figured out how to build a tank....)
When i first got Tactical nukes... i did the only thing i thought I should do with them.... heres the story

It was in a lull in my game. Most of it had war in it (first with Germany, then with France (gone), then with Greece (gone) then with Egypt (gone) then with America (relocated) then with Germany/Japan (Mutual defense...).

So, after all those wars, i finally get the tech for the Manhatten project, and discover i have absolutely no uranium in any of the 33% of the world i control... So, i steal it from Babylon in my second war with them. Now with my Manhatten project built, and Tactical nukes on the way, I decide to finnish my job of conquering Germany. Russia decides they don't like this at about the very same turn i get Tac nukes. I build my first tactical nuke, but decide to hold it a bit. Then, when Moscow is defending itself in a way that I had to either quit or get drasitic... i dropped my first nuke. Needless to say, this went from a 2vs 1... to a 6 vs1. I drop my second nuke on Russia... and now i haven't a friend in the world. Fortunately, It doesnt truly matter, cuz i have enough luxuries to stay out of discomfort (along with Communism), and i have the production capabilities to hold off all attackers at once, and still make slow gains with my tanks.

Now, just from what I've observed, Nukes do have quite the impact on whatever tiles or cities you drop them on. Its my experience that the AI doesnt exactly race to go clean up the mess you made, and if you hit a city, It generally starves to a respectable town sized level, thus reducing its defensive bonuses. Also, it might just be some kind of guess by me, but i think they pull out units from nuked cities, having the feeling its gonna fall into your hands. So conquering is a bit easier.

But thats on the small scale. On the large scale, once ya've used 1 or 2 nukes, you'll never make a friend again, and your almost guarenteed to be jumped on by everyone... unless you have diplomatic deals they like to much to give up. However, if u can sustain yourself without trade, and can hold off all enemy attacks at once, and possibly make territory gains too, then, by all means, pump out the ICBM's and get the world a'glowing!

p.s. I personally right now am stockpiling ICBMs in that game. India has tactical nuke capabilities, and i am actually trying to play the last 50 turns in relative peace. A mutual defence pact with India screwed that up when China got trigger happy, but I haven't used a nuke in 25 turns. Nukes are awesome to screw up a civ and its production (heh, at one point i was nuking any oil supplies that weren't mine....) but sometimes production is better used elsewhere, or the bad rap you get is just too anoying to bear.

	13-03-2002 08:41									#3
	Put an end to popups!

So far I'm just stockpiling ICBM's and ocassionally tactical nukes until I find the right moment to strike. Currently I've got about 30 ICBM's ready to go and about 5 tactical nukes which I'm planning on using against large groupings of enemy troops in expendable areas. All my 60-some cities have 2 mech infantry and some have a radar artillery in it just to soften up the attackers, not that they would get that close since I've got mech infantry in forts on every other square around my coast to guard against amphibious landings. Other than that I've currently got about 40 modern armor troops that are in various front line cities in groupings of 3 for better manageability, as well as about 40 mech infantry that are just waiting to be sent into newly conquered cities. Currently I also have a few battleships and an aircraft carrier with 4 stealth bombers in position to take out the enemy's luxuries and resources once war is declared.

To give you some background on the situation, I'm playing on a huge map with 7 other civs currently. I know that using nukes will destroy my reputation with all of them but so far everyone is furious with me while a couple of the nice civs are only annoyed. I've never broken a treaty and I've traded often with all the civs, although I do try to milk them for every last piece of gold I can. Perhaps that is why they are furious, or perhaps it's just because my civ is so much more dominant. Either way, I'm not losing much by nuking them since they are already furious with me and they have been for quite some time now.

	13-03-2002 09:00									#4
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

There's two possible scenarios.

1. Nuke them until they glow, then shoot them in the dark.

2. Build the nukes as a deterrance only (Remember MAD?(Mutually Assured Destruction)) and don't ever use them. Also get SDI up and running asap. Then, use conventional forces to deal with your enemies with a few shady alliance deals thrown in.

Always keep in mind that the AI isn't trying to win, it's trying to make you lose.

	13-03-2002 09:22									#5
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I have noticed that AI's that are allied with you don't seem to mind too much, although I'm not sure, having only used nukes in one game so far.

If that's the case, the best time to use nukes is when you're in a massive world war already, where every AI is either allied to you or fighting you.

	13-03-2002 10:13									#6
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I believe the consequences of using nukes are much worse for the first power to do so.

Last game I used nukes 3 other civs used them first. Nobody was fussed when I obliterated the third civ (they tossed one my way). Of course, by that time everyone who was anyone had SDI. Made a major dent in my apocolyptic happiness factor. Did I say obliterated? Most of that was with conventional forces. At least 4 out of 5 nukes got zapped.

BTW. I observed that the AI would target cities adjacent to Resources. Kinda a 2-fer. I don't know if they still do after 1.17f. I'd tell you that it pays to found some mostly useless corruption magnets right next to resources, and to never build an important city in the same circumstances, but Soren might be listening and change things.

Salve

	13-03-2002 10:58									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I've actually found that even allies will turn against you when you use a few nukes. In a test run I signed a mutual protection pact with the Persians, they in turn declared war on my enemy, but after I dropped the first nuke against my enemy the Persians broke their mutual protection pact and actually declared war on me. Strange twist and I wonder what that does to their reputation, but nevertheless I don't plan on using nukes unless I'm ready to take on the world.

	13-03-2002 11:38									#8
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Not in my experience, provided other civs use them first.

I don't think the game would be too much fun if your two opponents in a war used nukes on you, then you nuked them back, then the rest of world declared war and nuked you.

The trick is to wait for one of the AI to start the festivities. THEN, you can join in without recrimination.

Has anybody else observed what I am talking about? Or was it just a freak game?

Salve

	13-03-2002 13:08									#9
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Let's see.
Does your enemy has nukes.

Look at Military advisor screen.

If he has tacticals, where are they?
Use steal plans (spy).

Now, ally whith EVERYBODY AGAINST HIM.
This way other AIs wont mind about nuking him.

If his cities are right next to his supplies of OIL or RUBBER nuke them.

Nuking the capitol is good if they have foreign trade, but since you'll ally with everybody, it isn't that much importatnt (use it anyway).

Nuke any other citiy you think is too heavily defended.
It's much easier to take them after nukes.

USE nukes if time is priority (you don't want long sieges).




But if he has ICBMs? Then it's all up to you.

If he has tacticals? Then try nuking him in such way that his tacticals won't pose threat to you.
If they are at subs (ues steal plans), destroy these subs as quickly as possibile.


P.S.
I found nukes very usefull in one of my games.
I nuked about 30% of enemy cities.

	13-03-2002 14:52									#10
	something interesting about nukes... Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I built a scenario where my particular continent was LOADED with every possible resource you could imagine...
They nuked my butt to hell.
They[AI] didn't even bother sending over transports or anything.... they just nuked and nuked again. And they planned ahead.
SDI did well, but I'm talking 70 nukes a turn... I went to the bathroom in the middle of the nuking and when I came back, my civ was a 100,000 sq mile tanning salon.... go figure.

	13-03-2002 22:25									#11
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In my current game I'm the only civ that has nukes. I've got about 30 ICBM's and a few tactical nukes, and the rest of the civs don't even have tanks yet, so I'm wondering if I should use the nukes or not.

	13-03-2002 22:28									#12
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I wouldn't. I only use Nukes when it seems that I'd have too much lossed with a melee attack. I use lots of Bombers, get the city smaller, destroy some stuff, and take with other units.

If they got no Tanks, take your Tanks or Modern Armor, whatever you got, and attack.

	13-03-2002 22:48									#13
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Not in my experience, provided other civs use them first. I don't think the game would be too much fun if your two opponents in a war used nukes on you, then you nuked them back, then the rest of world declared war and nuked you. The trick is to wait for one of the AI to start the festivities. THEN, you can join in without recrimination. Has anybody else observed what I am talking about? Or was it just a freak game? Salve

I have notice this too. In a game that I was playing as the Babylonians and still have saved I ran several test to see what would happen if i delcared war on one of my neigbhors. One time I declared war on me and I let them attack me first, and they have about 8 ICMBS one tacital nuke. They tried to nuke my cities of course, but I have SDI and only one city got hit some times, ans sometimes none. I then all most all the other civs declared war on Egypt, ones with nukes used them too. I launched as well and no one declared war on me. When I decided to be the first to attack and be the first to use nukes, everyone declared war on me and only one city got hit with a nuke thanks to my SDI. Since I havce nuclear subs with tacital nukes all over the place(over 20) and around 25 ICBMs I was able to really mess up all the power who had nukes (which were three).

	14-03-2002 00:37									#14
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I think you would be better served by pumping out 100 or so Modern Armor and fighting conventionally. Nukes just aren't worth it.

-Arrian

	14-03-2002 03:35									#15
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I agree with Arrian. Using nuclear weapons is not a very good idea. Even if you can easly firght off all the other nations of the world and gain territory, the after effects will not be very good. Gobal warming will become a major problem since you will have lots of grassland turning into plains and plains into desert. So I think just usuing conventional forces would be best, and you wont have the entire world against you etheir.