14-03-2002 02:46									#1
	It took 2 World Wars to Destroy Britain and the Empire Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

'Tis common beleif (well, every one seems to be of the opinion that) had niether world war happened britain would not have lost the empire, and may have stayed a world Super Power.

I think its the other way round, if the Wars hadn't happend, Britain would have declined MUCH sooner.

WW1:

This war effectivly destroyed Germany as a great power and destroyed its potential to create imperial mischeif (building ups its own colonial empire). before WW1, germany was britains biggest rival, and was a growing industrial (already surpassed britain by 1914) and economic, and miliary power. so had it not been for WW1, Germany would have probably surpassed britain by the 20's.
WW1 also effectivly destroyed France, and in the interwar period never had any potential to be a power.
Combined with US isolationism then, Britain was, in many ways, at it MOST powerfule between 1919-1936, simply because there was no rivals, and no one to stop them. Even though cash was short, it wasnt as bad as post WW2.


WW2:

well, this did see the final end of British empire, but it did destroy every nation in the worlds potential to be a great power ('cept USA) so since then Britain, through peacfule decolonization = better realations with commonwealth nations, since then britain has managed to stay a factor (even if a tiny factor) in world affairs.


So, if it hadnt been for WW1 and 2, britain would have probably fought violently to keep the colonies when they finally rebbelled (a la France), would have declyined economicly, and left other nations to surpass it, which due to war never reached their full potential.



whatcha think?

	14-03-2002 02:56									#2
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Bullacks

	14-03-2002 03:01									#3
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why?

and you spell worse then me, its bollox

	14-03-2002 03:06									#4
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I think that it's probably correct. By 1939 India was all but lost to the British. Once India went the rationale for the chunks of the empire which were kept merely to protect India (eg Yemen, Kenya, Burma, etc) went as well.

Last edited by Case on 14-03-2002 at 07:58

	14-03-2002 03:08									#5
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OK.... who cares?

	14-03-2002 03:09									#6
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Sorry .......just felt like being an @ss for a second. There was one colonial war where someone said "first we will win this war and then we will give them what they want" pretty much sums up the British way, kick the sh1t out of em then divide their country up in a way that will have them fighting each other and running home to mummy all the time.

I don`t think that the empire would have gone down faster though (answering your original question). Wars always bring social change (due to the massive presures on societies), and it was those wars that weaken the UK (still paying for them), and woke up the colonies.

And good riddence i say who wants Australia anyhow

	14-03-2002 03:10									#7
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Pah. Who wants India and Kenya anyway? We've still got Pitcairn, and that's all that matters.

	14-03-2002 05:17									#8
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quote: Originally posted by BlackStone it was those wars that weaken the UK (still paying for them)

Hell we're still paying for the Napoleonic Wars!

	14-03-2002 07:34									#9
	Re: It took 2 World Wars to Destroy Britain and the Empire Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by The Andy-Man It took 2 World Wars to Destroy Britain and the Empire

I hope it will only take 1 1/2 World Wars to destroy the U.S. and their Empire.

	14-03-2002 07:38									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Yefei OK.... who cares?

Heh, whoever you are, you're definitly in the wrong forum.

	14-03-2002 09:21									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune I hope it will only take 1 1/2 World Wars to destroy the U.S. and their Empire.

Are you offering Austrian soil for the battleground?

	14-03-2002 12:23									#12
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quote: Originally posted by The Andy-Man WW2: well, this did see the final end of British empire, but it did destroy every nation in the worlds potential to be a great power ('cept USA) so since then Britain, through peacfule decolonization = better realations with commonwealth nations, since then britain has managed to stay a factor (even if a tiny factor) in world affairs. whatcha think?

Peaceful decolonization??
For some perhaps, but for other British colonies, you can bet your ass that Great Britain fought conflicts with native peoples to try to keep control over some of her colonies.

	14-03-2002 18:30									#13
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Well he was referring to the time post WW2 and I can't name any conflicts we have fought in this timeframe to retain Imperial control. Please name one?

You won't find too many examples post 19th century - post Boer war it tended to be other colonial powers that our conflicts centred around

Malaysia is perhaps the closest scenario to your suggestion post WW2 - but that falls largely into Blackstones defnition as we fought and defeated the communist insurgents then gave the country peaceful independence anyway (though it stopped this independence being Communist).

You might be confusing Britain with Belgium, Holland, Portugal and France ALL of whom most certainly fought kicking and screaming to retain some of their colonies in the post war period. I'm sure it would have been better for almost everyone if French Indochina had been given independence as soon as was practical after WW2?

	14-03-2002 18:43									#14
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I'm sure it would have been better for almost everyone if French Indochina had been given independence as soon as was practical after WW2?


A very good point, could have saved alot of trouble......


.......thoughs damn Frenchies

	14-03-2002 18:47									#15
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The whole rise and fall of the european empires reads like a Shakespearian tradgedy. European states intense competition, verging on hatred of each other at times, was the main factor in the rise of europe.
The same intense competition led to us kicking the **** out of each other twice in 25 years and throwing our dominance away.

	14-03-2002 18:49									#16
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Britain wouldn't have become a superpower anyways. They don't have the industrial capability or enough natural resources. What Britons need to remember is that.... YOU ARE ON A LITTLE ISLAND! The only thing that allowed you to become an imperial power was the English channel. Britain was never vulnerable from a surface attack during empirial age the way France, Spain, Germany, Italy, Austria, etc were. Their Navy kept invaders out and allowed them to spread across the globe.

Plus, your "empire" consisted of the America's, India, and Africa. Pretty easy to take over a bunch of people when you have guns and they don't. It's ironic that Britain's arrogance led to its Empire's downfall.

The World Wars just put Britain in its place. It doesn't matter if they happened or not. The invention of gunpowder sparked an arms race that still hasn't ended. It doesn't matter when the world wars started... they were inevitable. The atom bomb is the only thing deterring WWIII. During the Cold War, Russia and the US (thank the maker) were led by guys who didn't want to die. Once nations who are led by psychopaths who don't fear death, like Iraq, get atomic weapons. They're going to use them. If Saddam Hussein finds out he has terminal cancer tomorrow, you can say bye bye to Israel because he's going to strap a nuke on a scud and spark WWIII.

	14-03-2002 18:57									#17
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Sava - Actually the UK was a superpower of its time, in that it could go anywhere and do anything almost unchallenged, and there wasn`t another power that could over power it.

	14-03-2002 19:01									#18
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quote: Originally posted by BlackStone Sava - Actually the UK was a superpower of its time, in that it could go anywhere and do anything almost unchallenged, and there wasn`t another power that could over power it.

Congrats you win the DUH! Award. I meant modern superpower. All it took to become a superpower in the empirial age was isolation, guns, and a Navy.

	14-03-2002 19:04									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Congrats you win the DUH! Award. I meant modern superpower. All it took to become a superpower in the empirial age was isolation, guns, and a Navy.

...How exciting I`ve never won an award before


Oh and industrial capabilities we started the industrial revolution you doughnut

	14-03-2002 19:06									#20
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note: this isnt meant to be an anti-american post. Just a reply to the whole english channel thing.

quote: What Britons need to remember is that.... YOU ARE ON A LITTLE ISLAND! The only thing that allowed you to become an imperial power was the English channel

Lets consider some of the other great powers of the industrial age.

What [Americans] need to remember is that.... YOU ARE ON A [PEACEFUL, SAFE CONTINENT] The only things that allowed you to become an imperial power were the Atlantic and the Pacific

Similar for Japan - If it had been linked to mainland asia there would never have been a Japan - Just another part of China

	14-03-2002 19:10									#21
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quote: Originally posted by BlackStone ...How exciting I`ve never won an award before Oh and industrial capabilities we started the industrial revolution you doughnut

So? I'm talking about total industrial output. For instance. Germany lost WWII mainly because the US could outproduce it. Germany could build 1,000 aircraft per year, the US could build 3,000 per year. Hence, the US gained air superiority. Russia could build more tanks than Germany, hence, Germany got its ass handed to them, so to speak. There were other factors, but industrial capacity is the key indicator of a superpower.

	14-03-2002 19:19									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Zulu Elephant note: this isnt meant to be an anti-american post. Just a reply to the whole english channel thing. Lets consider some of the other great powers of the industrial age. What [Americans] need to remember is that.... YOU ARE ON A [PEACEFUL, SAFE CONTINENT] The only things that allowed you to become an imperial power were the Atlantic and the Pacific Similar for Japan - If it had been linked to mainland asia there would never have been a Japan - Just another part of China

I do remember that, and I am proud of it! Having those natural barriers is very important. I didn't say that America became a superpower because it was naturally superior. I just got the feeling from the Brits posting here that they believe that England was just naturally so superior to the rest of Europe.

Although I speak English, was born in America, I do not consider myself a die-hard patriot. Would I die for my country? Yes, if it was threatened. But would I hesitate for one second if given the chance to immigrate to a better place? No!

My mom's side of my family came to America in 1958 from a refugee camp in Germany. My grandfather fought with the British in WWII in a Serbian guerilla division. My first loyalty is to the free world... America, basically. Second, I support the Serbian people. Third, I support Israel because of what the Nazis tried to do to them... and I hhhaattteee Nazis.

Britain has been the most arrogant nation throughout history. It's empirialistic ideals didn't dissipate until 1948 when Egypt took control of the Suez canal.

America is like the big bully of the world. Britain is its little wussy friend standing behind it going, "Yeah yeah, what are you going to do... America will kick yer ass if you mess with me."

	14-03-2002 19:24									#23
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You should not have dignified Sava by rising to his bait. Throughout it's Imperial history Great Britain was fighting and defeating the very best armed contemporary powers - humbling Spain, France and Imperial Russia at the height of their powers, blooding Austria and various German principalities, not to mention burning the White House (the only country ever to have hostile troops in the US capital I think you will find).

To suggest Imperial Britain was not a superpower simply does not hold any water - it could project force at will almost anywhere in the globe and that pretty much IS what defines a Superpower.

	14-03-2002 19:28									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Havak You should not have dignified Sava by rising to his bait. Throughout it's Imperial history Great Britain was fighting and defeating the very best armed contemporary powers - humbling Spain, France and Imperial Russia at the height of their powers, blooding Austria and various German principalities, not to mention burning the White House (the only country ever to have hostile troops in the US capital I think you will find). To suggest Imperial Britain was not a superpower simply does not hold any water - it could project force at will almost anywhere in the globe and that pretty much IS what defines a Superpower.

AHHH AHHH AHHHH

CAN YOU PEOPLE NOT READ!!!! I DIDN'T SAY IT WASN'T A SUPERPOWER.... I SAID IT ISN'T A MODERN SUPERPOWER BECAUSE IT ISN'T!!!!



wow that's three "AHHS"

Don't take my posts as a sign that I don't luv the Brits... I do...

Just be aware and remember why Britain became a superpower... and be honest when discussing why Britain isn't anymore.

	14-03-2002 19:29									#25
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Sava-

I really dont see how Britain can be considered more arrogant than any of the other european powers or the USA or Japan.

If you can give me examples of British arrogance that are unsurpassed by other nations then I'll listen.

What I wont listen to is UK bashing, justified by some vague view of a stereotypical, Churchill-style arrogant englishman

	14-03-2002 19:32									#26
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"I just got the feeling from the Brits posting here that they believe that England was just naturally so superior to the rest of Europe. "

You mean we aren`t.......that can`t be right. Just look at them



"Britain is its little wussy friend standing behind it going, "Yeah yeah, what are you going to do... America will kick yer ass if you mess with me."

It has always struck me that the UK is like a father figure to a rather clumsy and loutish child that has grown physically faster then emotionally of interlectually( ). We off you the emotional support and advice that you need through this difficult time (puberty)

	14-03-2002 19:35									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Havak You should not have dignified Sava by rising to his bait. Throughout it's Imperial history Great Britain was fighting and defeating the very best armed contemporary powers - humbling Spain, France and Imperial Russia at the height of their powers, blooding Austria and various German principalities, not to mention burning the White House (the only country ever to have hostile troops in the US capital I think you will find). To suggest Imperial Britain was not a superpower simply does not hold any water - it could project force at will almost anywhere in the globe and that pretty much IS what defines a Superpower.

Abosolutely correct, we have a long history of taking on superior forces and winning. Like spain and france (in the early days), and least we forget standing alone against Hitler for a not insignificant time. The best arnies in the world built on the best trade in the world.

I thank you

	14-03-2002 19:36									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Zulu Elephant Sava- I really dont see how Britain can be considered more arrogant than any of the other european powers or the USA or Japan. If you can give me examples of British arrogance that are unsurpassed by other nations then I'll listen. What I wont listen to is UK bashing, justified by some vague view of a stereotypical, Churchill-style arrogant englishman

Technically, you're reading, not listening. Just to set the record straight... the US is the most arrogant nation in the world. I believe we had 9-11 coming.

I'm not bashing Britain so much as I'm bashing Britain's view of itself historically.

If you want I can bash America... In fact, I think I bash America better than any other nation/people I bash except Islamic countries.

I'm such an ass... if there ever is a Utopia... I would bash it

	14-03-2002 19:37									#29
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Suex was seized illeaglly in 1956. And only the intervention of the US government stopped Britain and France crushing the seizure of our lawful property.

It is one of the most misguided things your country ever did, and it was one of the most direct causes for our government refusing to commit anything to Indochina a decade later. Whilst militarily not important a small British presence in that Theatre would have been priceless for you politically and may (nothing more than may) have helped change things. As it is we know what happened.

Do you not realise all countries make mistakes? You clearly have issues with Britain the way you words come across but, and open your eyes here, America is not perfect either.

quote: My first loyalty is to the free world... America, basically

And ask yourself how that comes across to people living in countries that were democracies (albeit limited) before your country even existed and who banned slavery fifty years before you (pretended to) after your civil war.

And if Britian were Imperial bullies remind me how you took control of Cuba and the Phillipines again?

Neither of our countries histories are perfect - I can see that, can you?

	14-03-2002 19:43									#30
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quote: Just be aware and remember why Britain became a superpower... and be honest when discussing why Britain isn't anymore.

I have no blinkers there - we can't sneeze without George saying so these days. The entire army has less manpower than the BAOR (our forces in Germany in the day) had in my time.

What we do have is still damn good though. Why do you think your commands make such extensive use of us for certain roles?