14-03-2002 10:37									#1
	Human Player vs THE WORLD!!! Support Apolyton

Heres an idea for the next patch. Someone figure out how to make the AI's fight each other! Is it just me or doe's it take a lot of the fun out of the game to be dogpiled on by all the AI's just because you screwed over ONE of them?!? OR , one of them threatens you , you tell them to piss off , a declaration of war is made THEN everybody dogpiles on you!!! Is this supposed to be fun Sid? Somebody needs to kick Sid in the buttocks repeatedly until he fixes this problem. Until then , I'll go back to playing Test of Time or Alpha Centauri.

	14-03-2002 10:47									#2
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Sid?

he didn't design this game. I agree, while I have seen the ai fight each other, it doesn't happen frequently. And if you are weak the ai will pounce on you. I avoid this by not being a weak empire.

	14-03-2002 10:51									#3
	Tired of ads?

I doubt Sid has ever played it. But I bet he is cashing the checks.

	14-03-2002 11:01									#4
	Sid is a god.... Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

........so is George Lucas. And then he allowed the creation of (erk!) The Phantom Menace! Seriously , I like Civ 3 , so far. It just seems too much like a work in progress instead of a finished product. Then again , with all the mods and editors out there for just about every game under the sun......
Still , I could have waited for the bugs to be worked out before I shelled out my $49 , thank you.

	14-03-2002 11:24									#5
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

You could try to explore all the aspects of the game instead of just one or two.

Hmmm... what's this Diplomacy thingy? Wonder what will happen if I ask the other AIs to go to war with my enemy? Hmmm... seems it is relatively cheap in gold to get an AI to declare war on anyone... Maybe worth the price.

But seriously. It cost me about 500 gold (paid over turns) to get the Aztec's ally, the Greeks, to declare war on the Aztecs in my current game. It was well worth it.

You may ignore diplomacy, but rest assured the AI will not. Hence you can either end up allied to many AI civs, or at war with the same civs. That's just how the game works.

Salve

	14-03-2002 11:33									#6
	how to judge danger Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I think it is fine for the computer to be somewhat more aggressive towards the human player than other computer players, but i agree that the way computer players in this game assign long-range startegic goals is not the best. Many times, all the civs will gang up on a weak one, but in the process, one civ gets the lions share, becomes even stronger, and then kills its previous partners. So, long term, that ganging up was stupid, since it screwed the existing power balance to the rgeat davantage fo one player and the great detriment of the others. I think the computer should take into account not only the power balance between itself and another player (and teven this is sometimes poorly done- why would a civ with a fifth my power seek to anger me?) but the general power balance. If one civ is too strong, ally yourself against it, not with it all the time and so forth.

	14-03-2002 14:29									#7
	Support Apolyton

i think it is fine how it is!

If i end up going to war with another then i just make sure i take another relatively useful ally in with me... even though it may cost exorbitant prices to do so..

Expect to get picked on if your not prepared to pay for an ally as the enemy AI will almost certainly get allies...!

	14-03-2002 18:39									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Civ2 had the team-up-against-the-strongest-model. It had it's flaws, too. In Civ3 most of the A.I. wars don't seem to have a strategic purpose. Indians allied with Brits against me(I was at war with Brits already). I reloaded and convinced(50 Gold or so, late game) the Indians to declare on the Brits. So obviously India declared war without any strategy.

	14-03-2002 18:50									#9
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Pius Popprasch Civ2 had the team-up-against-the-strongest-model. It had it's flaws, too. In Civ3 most of the A.I. wars don't seem to have a strategic purpose. Indians allied with Brits against me(I was at war with Brits already). I reloaded and convinced(50 Gold or so, late game) the Indians to declare on the Brits. So obviously India declared war without any strategy.

Apart from the fact that both you, or the Brits, were paying India to fight for you.. They probably thought well there's some easy money and the possibility to expand at the same time..

Much the same as you might, if the AI offered to pay you to help them fight out a war... even if you weren't particularly interested in attacking, you might still accept the payment...

	14-03-2002 18:55									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither You could try to explore all the aspects of the game instead of just one or two. Hmmm... what's this Diplomacy thingy? Wonder what will happen if I ask the other AIs to go to war with my enemy? Hmmm... seems it is relatively cheap in gold to get an AI to declare war on anyone... Maybe worth the price.

Pay them enough and an AI will declare war. But they just stand there glaring at the enemy until you've weakened them enough. Then they try to grab a couple of cities. Scum!

quote: But seriously. It cost me about 500 gold (paid over turns) to get the Aztec's ally, the Greeks, to declare war on the Aztecs in my current game. It was well worth it.

If it's worth it, the AI would probably have gone to war anyway.

quote: You may ignore diplomacy, but rest assured the AI will not. Hence you can either end up allied to many AI civs, or at war with the same civs. That's just how the game works. Salve

The annoying thing about th AI in this case is that they act way to much like the human player. They should be honourable and ... honour deals in the spirit they were intended. Instead they're sneaky scumsucking b*astards.

Robert

	15-03-2002 10:17									#11
	Here , Here! Well spoken bruce!!! Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

To answer the comments on not being the weak player , thats not the problem. More often than not I find myself being hit up by Civs 2 or more rungs below me. When I call their bluff , they declare war on me. In the next couple of turns everyone else is signing alliences against me. Telling the runt to @#$% off should be a show of strength that turns them off instead of making them pounce on me like a juicy porterhouse. What should I do , give the 98lb weakling Iron Working or Gunpowder so he can turn around and give it to everyone else then stab me in the back?I guess I'm just not getting the hang of this "diplomacy thing" , yet.

	15-03-2002 17:57									#12
	Re: Here , Here! Well spoken bruce!!! Got spare money?

I have had no trouble avoiding war, starting war, or causing wars between others. Here is an example where I kept the eastern continent at perpetual war, while I "unified" the western continent. Eventually, I had to invade to stop raids on my southern islands (and for other, more strategic reasons).



http://www.crowncity.net/civ3/beachhead.htm

	15-03-2002 18:07									#13
	Full PM-box? Change here!

As for the original topic, I see no problem here. The AI fights each other. I've allied with AIs against other AIs, and my allies were of use there. Most useful allies ever.

	16-03-2002 02:01									#14
	Ok , Ok...... Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I guess I have to get used to the fact that this version is hard on the war-chest. I'm still used to being able to stay relatively isolated until I'm ready to fund huge "land acquisitions". Anougther part of my old strategy is to share nothing unless I have to. (Knowledge is power and all that) Now it is necessary to have constant contact with neighbors and throw them bones all the time Ah well....change is good. Its often a pain in the @#$ , but it is nescessary.
To Zachriel
How do you manage your distant colonys? The ones not connected with your home continent? It's not impossible , I know , it's just very ssslllooowww going. And the corruption......or is this anoughther thread? Sorry , I'm new at this.

	16-03-2002 02:10									#15
	Re: Human Player vs THE WORLD!!! Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Maxis Dugan Heres an idea for the next patch. Someone figure out how to make the AI's fight each other! Is it just me or doe's it take a lot of the fun out of the game to be dogpiled on by all the AI's just because you screwed over ONE of them?!? OR , one of them threatens you , you tell them to piss off , a declaration of war is made THEN everybody dogpiles on you!!! Is this supposed to be fun Sid? Somebody needs to kick Sid in the buttocks repeatedly until he fixes this problem. Until then , I'll go back to playing Test of Time or Alpha Centauri.

Note that I am playing a nonpatched game (I just have never bothered to patch it)

but in my game, one nation made alliances with a couple other nations and attacked my neighbor, then continued to make a grand alliance (14 members, everyone but the nation getting attacked and myself (who was being issolationsist)) and completely anhiliated my neighbor.

Jon Miller

	16-03-2002 02:43									#16
	Re: Human Player vs THE WORLD!!! Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Maxis Dugan Heres an idea for the next patch. Someone figure out how to make the AI's fight each other! Is it just me or doe's it take a lot of the fun out of the game to be dogpiled on by all the AI's just because you screwed over ONE of them?!? OR , one of them threatens you , you tell them to piss off , a declaration of war is made THEN everybody dogpiles on you!!! Is this supposed to be fun Sid? Somebody needs to kick Sid in the buttocks repeatedly until he fixes this problem. Until then , I'll go back to playing Test of Time or Alpha Centauri.

1. This little guy needs to be banned ->

2. (More to the point) In my last game I played w/ 14 Civs on a huge map. I did not get into a war until 1840. At that time the 13 other Civs had beaten each other down to 4. This happens most of the time.

3. Suggestion - play something else. Maybe you're not big enough to play this game.

	16-03-2002 03:12									#17
	Put an end to popups!

Cooper shut the hell up. I've read two threads today and you are on both of them telling people to play another game if they have complaints about this one. You want to argue your point that's one thing, but people have right to voice their opinions.

As far as the Civs all going to war with you. They all war with each other it seems just fine in my games, but what I don't like is when a Civ that is friendly to you can be bought off so easily. Are you trying to tell me that if China paid Great Britian $100 Trillion, we'd see English marines coming on shore at Miami Beach?

War can be fun, but there are other victory conditions that people would like to pursue. When you have to be constantly defending yourself from unprovoked attacks by multiple nations, it makes those other VC's harder to obtain.

	16-03-2002 03:57									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

In my current game, I'm in the very south of a continent, the Iroquois are a bit to the north of me, and then there's the Japanese and the Egyptians directly to the North and Northwest of them, respectively. Well after some peaceful dealings with the Iroquois for awhile, they suddenly declare war on me for no reason, our cultural borders weren't even near each other, nor had there been any sort of conflict.

Well right away I approached both of the other two civs on the continent, parting with only a minor tech each, and now all three of us are at war with Hiawatha, who will no doubt soon be nothing more than a memory. I'd hardly call that an example of the AI ganging up on me! So maybe you should expore your diplomacy options a little bit further!

	16-03-2002 06:00									#19
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by The Rook Cooper shut the hell up. I've read two threads today and you are on both of them telling people to play another game if they have complaints about this one. You want to argue your point that's one thing, but people have right to voice their opinions.

1. Both of the posts in question did argue my point. In the case of this thread it is this: The game doesn't always gang up on the human player. In fact if you manage the diplomatic side well you can get by without a lot of wars against you.

2. I have never told any one to shut up. You say people have the right to their opinions. That includes me. My opinion is that if you really, really hate this game, then you should do something else. If you want to continue playing then go ahead. Thank you for your concern. Oh...and you can talk as much as you want.

	16-03-2002 09:31									#20
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Little?
Seriously , now that I look at my initial post , it was fairly angry. Because I was angry! .......At the time. I got over it. As you can see by my later posts. I think I'm going to try your tactic with larger numbers of AI's though. Makes sense. I just hate the way they proliferate like cockroches , but that just means they will have to come into conflict sooner.

	16-03-2002 10:05									#21
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by ACooper 1. Both of the posts in question did argue my point. In the case of this thread it is this: The game doesn't always gang up on the human player. In fact if you manage the diplomatic side well you can get by without a lot of wars against you.

That's all that needed to be said. The game doesn't always gang up on the human. You dont need to suggesting that people who have complaints are not "big enough" to play this game.

quote: Originally posted by ACooper 2. I have never told any one to shut up. You say people have the right to their opinions. That includes me. My opinion is that if you really, really hate this game, then you should do something else. If you want to continue playing then go ahead. Thank you for your concern. Oh...and you can talk as much as you want.

People say they hate this game, but what they actually hate is their shattered expectations. They know that there is still hope for Civ3 through the miracle of patches and user-mods. That is why they are here. They aren't just whining.

	16-03-2002 10:19									#22
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Some other things to do.

The instant one civ declares war on you, dial up his/her neighbours and find out what they want for an alliance against this person (you can usually get it by offering some gold). Also, if the civ that is attacking has a MPP with another, sign an MPP with that one too and wait to be attacked. MPPs can forestall a declaration of war sometimes too but it's not something to rely on.

Then sit backand watch from afar. But use that time wisely and build your military. In every game, I always assume it's me vs all others and plan accordingly.

An example.
In a game where I was playing Egypt (others - Japan, America, Aztecs, China, Japan, Germany and France). Abe landed a small (8 units) expedionary force in my territory. At the time, Abe had a MPP with Tokugawa who was on the other side of a channel above me but on Abe's northern border. So, I signed a quick MPP and on the next turn, Abe declacred war and attacked at which point Japan joined in on my side. I then dialled up Mao (on Abe's southern border) and signed up an alliance against America. Earlier, I had been attacked by the Aztecs and had signed an alliance with France, China and Germany against them. Throughout the next 40 turns, I did little more that watch the various wars from a distance, defend my coastline and continue to build and improve my cities.

A helpful axiom was posted by someone on this forum but I can't remember who.

"Build your army before going to war."

(edit section)
The above refers to my style of play which is Builder.

Second, Knowing how to defend is just as important as knowing how to attack.