14-03-2002 11:15									#1
	Global Warming does not exist Put an end to popups!

Here's a generic MSNBC article http://www.msnbc.com/news/356875.asp?cp1=1

satellite data http://www.ghcc.msfc.nasa.gov/MSU/hl_measuretemp.htm
http://www.ghcc.msfc.nasa.gov/MSU/msusci.html

this page isn't that useful but.. http://www.globalwarming.org/sciup/sci1-24-01.htm
http://users.erols.com/dhoyt1/

and finally the EPA site that shows that global warming is real sort of. http://www.epa.gov/globalwarming/

what really bothers me is most of these temperatures are taken in cities. Of course cities are getting hotter!! (because they are getting bigger) Don't these fools understand the make up and structures of cities? I'm more inclined to believe the satellite figures more than surface temperatures taken near cities. But this doesn't answer the questions that the glaciers are melting. Which according to small articles in dicover magazine they are receding. Most glaciers in glacier national park are expected to be gone in 60 or 70 years. What do we make of this? Some say temperatures are rising in the northern hemisphere and decreasing in the southern hemisphere (Christy has mentioned this in the above mentioned article)

Most of this comes from the John Christy article in last years Discover magazine.

Is this guy a crock? discuss

Last edited by Dis on 14-03-2002 at 11:23

	14-03-2002 18:24									#2
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If global warming is happening, its not because of human emissions.

	14-03-2002 18:43									#3
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Why ?
Should maybe say "it's not only because of ...".
I mean human polution have real effect on climat but maybe not enough to create a general climat change. And maybe volcanoes have not enough impact too to change the climat. But volcanoes + human activity maybe will !

But I'm not sure that too much C02 in atmosphere will automatically generate a global warming. We know nothing or very few more about climat and its possible side-effect.

But we are not scientist and even scientist are not sure about climatic theory. So wa cannot say : yes or no !

	14-03-2002 18:54									#4
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It seems to me that most of the people who claim that global warming doesnt exist are people with a vested interest in it not existing.

Industrialists who dont want to sacrfice profits or politicians who would rather spend money on more popular projects (like the military) than be portrayed by the media as destroying their countrys economy by over-regulating.

	14-03-2002 19:11									#5
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May idea is such human activity have a risk even if the rish is not 100% sure, we have to limit it at the maximum.

So people who said "Global Warning" don't exist are too self-confident to be honest or don't evaluate the danger id the risk becomes real.

This not because with have no clear proof of human impact on climat, that human activity don't have any impact.

	14-03-2002 20:09									#6
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GLOBAL WARMING IS A FARSE!

	14-03-2002 20:13									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia If global warming is happening, its not because of human emissions.

How can you be so sure?
It could be a natural environmental change or it could have been caused by humankind.
Scientists agree that certain products being used by modern societies affect negatively the environment.
Besides the ozone holes is unlikely to have been created naturally.

	14-03-2002 20:14									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Keygen How can you be so sure?

Because I am.

	14-03-2002 20:26									#9
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I live in the Midwest so I'm okay . And there isn't enough water stored in the ice caps to create a water world . And if it turns the Mississippi into a Gulf... then I'll be that much closer to beach front property.

Hopefully, most of the eastern US seaboard will get engulfed!

Then the Yankees can't win another world series.

	14-03-2002 20:28									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Because I am.

Congratulations then

	14-03-2002 20:30									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Keygen Congratulations then

Thanks.

	14-03-2002 20:58									#12
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Hands up anyone who knows the name of the gas that is the major greenhouse contributor. Anyone?

The answer is water vapour. Pat yourself on the back if you knew that one. Now everybody, stop boiling kettles, and please don't ride on any steam trains or you'll kill all life on the planet

	14-03-2002 23:36									#13
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You're right, but the level of water vapor in the air is determined by global heat. If earth warm up so water vapor level raise and the earth warm up more etc ... A vicious circle.

The diminition of ice cap, low the albedo level of the planet, who reflect less sun ray and the planet heat raise again : A vicious circle.

	15-03-2002 00:09									#14
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quote: Originally posted by ZoboZeWarrior The diminition of ice cap, low the albedo level of the planet, who reflect less sun ray and the planet heat raise again : A vicious circle.

How did we ever get out of the ice age then??

	15-03-2002 00:57									#15
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Eh, I'm a compuiter scientist, not a climatologist.

Climat is of course not so simple has I described :
more water in atmosphere more cloud : Less sun ray warming the biosphere and the atmosphere, so the heat go down ...

The heath rise : less Ice cap, okay ? But more ocean too : or ocean have high albedo too : the sun ray warm less the earth ...

The vicious circles, I described previously, are in fact no so vicious .

Volcanoe reject CO2 who is responsable of Grennhouse effect. Right but Volcanoe reject dust clouds too, who stop sun ray and counter-effect the green-house.

Climat is a hard thing to understand ! Nature is balanced is full of forces which annihilate each other.

All this thing are in an unstable balance. Because, in one force disapear or a new forces appear the structure could collapse.
And I fear that Human activity could put the climat out of balance !

	15-03-2002 01:07									#16
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quote: The diminition of ice cap, low the albedo level of the planet, who reflect less sun ray and the planet heat raise again

Water vapour is a greenhouse gas, but clouds increase the albedo of the Earth. If you want an example of both effects of water vapour/clouds in this respect look-out for:

1) Cloudy nights and dawns are always warmer than clear nights dawns - frost usually appears after clear nights. This because the clouds keep in the warmth of the Earth
2) Cloudy days are colder than clear days. This because it blocks out the warmth of the sun.

Common knowledge stuff really.

	15-03-2002 01:13									#17
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If you want to get grant money, you better be playing the game...

	15-03-2002 01:18									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin quote: The diminition of ice cap, low the albedo level of the planet, who reflect less sun ray and the planet heat raise again Water vapour is a greenhouse gas, but clouds increase the albedo of the Earth. If you want an example of both effects of water vapour/clouds in this respect look-out for: 1) Cloudy nights and dawns are always warmer than clear nights dawns - frost usually appears after clear nights. This because the clouds keep in the warmth of the Earth 2) Cloudy days are colder than clear days. This because it blocks out the warmth of the sun. Common knowledge stuff really.

Common knowledge are generaly right on the effect, but wroong on the origine of the phenomenum.

Your analyse is biased, because you don't considere the level of humidity, and humidity keeps the heat.

Since cloud keep a little the planet heat during the night phase by stopping a little the infra-red ray to diffuse out of earth, you're right on this point.

	15-03-2002 01:23									#19
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Humidity does keeps the heat, but it also provides a larger heat reservoir, which reduces the rate of temperature drop. Similar to why the sea remains warmer than the land - not because they lose less heat but because they possess more heat.

In terms of discussing origins I could have discussed optical depths, greyness of atmospheres, Rayleigh scattering, (etc..) but I thought I would keep the concepts simple.

	15-03-2002 01:40									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin Humidity does keeps the heat, but it also provides a larger heat reservoir, which reduces the rate of temperature drop. Similar to why the sea remains warmer than the land - not because they lose less heat but because they possess more heat. In terms of discussing origins I could have discussed optical depths, greyness of atmospheres, Rayleigh scattering, (etc..) but I thought I would keep the concepts simple.

Thanks ! Since such analyse of ... how to mean in english ... spectographical behavior (?) of different atmosphere layers are important to mesure the impact of sun ray on the planet heat (sun-ray is the motor of carbon cycle and both have effect on the global heat ... bla bla ...). But we can discuss about each aspect of problems during days and nights...

So it's time to end my discussion on (I've to go to bed) : I don't know if we will have a Global Warning (or an Ice Age, why not ?), but I prefere not to take the risk !

	15-03-2002 01:42									#21
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well this John Christy guy isn't backed by big business or industry. He specifically refuses money from them so he doesn't give a false impression.

He listed his sources of income. NASA, Alabama, and the university he works for are the primary sources he recieves money from.

The only motive I can see that this guy would say global warming is false is maybe he likes driving a big SUV around .

	15-03-2002 13:24									#22
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It's the Brits who need to worry. Once the Atlantic conveyor belt stops working it will be cold up there.

	15-03-2002 13:43									#23
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The scientists in the presidental commison agreed that there is a 90% or better chance of global warming caused by human actions. These are people with PhD's in relevant subjects...

The problem with global warming debate is the same as evolution. Any indication that global warming might not occur is widely publicised, while refutations of said publication, not to mention the hundreds of studies showing a relationship are published in trade journals such as 'journal of climatology' etc. Not many of us have a habit of browsing through that section of our local university library... Since Barnes&Noble doesn;t even carry it.

Add to that right-wing nutcases who insists that it is all a liberal plot to kill industry and consequently the american dream, and you have a large portion of people (including the idiot-in-chief) who chooses to believe the popular non-science over real science....

	15-03-2002 15:16									#24
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The effect of smelting by the Romans in Roman Britain is detectable and caused variations in temperature in Greenland, as was told by drilling the ice sheet.

This was just a bunch of primitive people making metal tools. I think it's funny that with how much more we do today some people say that there is not a problem. HA!

	15-03-2002 16:23									#25
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I think that global warming is occuring.

That being said, I wonder if global warming is really as bad as some people make it seem. We really don't know what effects global warming will have on the planet. For all we know, there might be distinct advantages to having a warmer climate. If I remember correctly, we are in a period of extremely cold climate anyway. A warmer climate would actually be normal for the Earth. I guess I'm just not that concerned about it...

	15-03-2002 17:44									#26
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You must have been sleeping in the last decade or two

The effects of global warming is not just a warmer climate. Warm places will be warmer and cold places will be colder. There will be more violent weather systems. The melting of glaciers will cause the loss of flatlands where most people dwell, while these areas tend to be the most fertile for agriculture. It will also mean an increase of tropical diseases.

	15-03-2002 18:12									#27
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I say, melt all the damn ice... and make the world a pleasant 75 degrees Fahrenheit.

	16-03-2002 06:05									#28
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UR et al. take a look at the Christie site. He seems to be a pretty reasonable guy. Not some rightist kook. A real academic. There is no proof that droughts or hurricanes have increased in intensity. Every year there is some weather extreme that gets blamed on global warming. Well, there are always weather extremes.

	16-03-2002 06:20									#29
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Global warming is happening.
However it is not humans that are causing it.
our planet is simply still warming from the last Ice age.
There has always been an ebb and flow in Earths climate and some day in the future(though not in our lifetime) the world will begin to cool again.

It is the height of arrogance to think that we can control everything in particular the Earth.
Mother Earth controls us all.

	16-03-2002 06:31									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Evil_Eric_4 our planet is simply still warming from the last Ice age.

At the rate the tempurature is rising, that would mean that the ice age happened only a couple thousand or so years ago.