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Koyaanisqatsi
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of Maine paupers.
May 1999
time: 00:12
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As I've been reading over the messages lately, it seems like there's been more and more of a call for complexity that won't so much add fun to the game as add realism. While I'm not sure I agree with KISS (since I do like micromanaging things) I don't think that complexity should be added just for realism's sake.
Thus, the introduction of a new priciple to the forums...TINS. This Is NOT Simhistory!
Do we need to model a free market economy? Will it be fun? Will it add to the game in some meaningful way, or will it just be one more variable to track? Do we need our citizens to emigrate? We already have incentive to keep our empires happy...if we don't they riot. Is it just another factor that's going to take up time every turn? Refugees? I'm one of the people who support this idea, although not in the form that has been suggested most recently. But are they just going to be AI controlled random factors, or are you going to be able to use them in some productive fashion? Are they white noise, or music?
The Civ series is about fun. Micromanagement is fun...to a point. Sometimes it's fun when a single turn takes a half hour to finish. When you're planning an invasion or revamping your infrastructure, you probably don't even realize that it took half an hour. That's because you're thinking, and being creative. Personally, I don't find plugging the right numbers into the right algorithms to get the best results fun.
So...TINS. When you're suggesting something, or replying to somebody else's suggestion, please keep a few questions in mind: Is this going to be fun? Is there a simpler way I could do this that would be just as fun? Am I suggesting this because it happened this way in history, or because it will add some new facet to the game that will force me to be creative in its use?
TINS--It's not just a cheesy acronym, it's a way of life.
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young newbie forever
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hopatcong,NJ,USA
Dec 2000
time: 05:12
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finally someone who thinks the way i do about this topic.
Thou i am just a settler ive been watching this forum since it started and only recently have the suggestions become so.. well "not good" that ive started posting.
i support your idea completly and i am really p.o.ed about people whining about things like three cornered hats on riflemen. I actually like the rifleman better that way. not that im against micromanagement but do we really need like parties that are formed just couse your troops moved left and not right.
FINNALY someone realizes that firaxis wont fail us (hey if they do thell never do as bad as activision.)
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Koyaanisqatsi
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of Maine paupers.
May 1999
time: 00:12
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Ok then. As a starting point: What makes a Civ game fun? What goals should we be working toward?
Personally, I think it's that you have to be creative in your actions. You're given a (relatively, given the scope) simple set of rules, and told 'Ok, apply these rules as best you can. I'll do the same, and we'll see what we can see.' Complexity that adds more opportunity for creativity is good.
You say you want a unit that not only can pillage tile improvements, but kill off one unit of population while they're at it? Yeah, I can see several strategies where that could be useful, if applied correctly. You realize, of course, there will be certain drawbacks, but, you'll have to weigh those in your decisions, won't you?
Complexity that adds formulas with few variables is bad.
You say you want a system where, if you put a caravan on a mountain with a mine, it increases the production from that mine by fifty percent? Well...why not just assume that you already have caravans at every mine? I mean, strategically, your caravan is no more protected than the mine itself, so you already have to protect that square anyways.
I don't know...what does everybody think makes Civ fun?
[This message has been edited by Bell (edited January 15, 2001).]
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JosefGiven
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Tavistock, Devon, UK
Jan 2001
time: 05:12
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I must say, I oppose this TINS movement...My troops are on their way to crush it mercilessly. 
While there is a lot of truth concerning over-complexity in your argument, I would say one of the great strengths of the two original Civs is the feeling you get that you are re-writing the history books. In this sense, Civ is a Sim-History game. Or a 'What if?...' scenario generator at the very least.
I think there is place for slightly more in-game complexity in Civ III than there is in the previous two incarnations and their wayward ToT, CTP, SMAC off-shoots.
Of course, too much complexity and Sid and his comrades will spoil the broth...It is just another factor to balance: Realism vs. Gameplay.
Oh, and let's have no more of this extremist TINS movement, if you please
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Josef Given
josefgiven@hotmail.com
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Koyaanisqatsi
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of Maine paupers.
May 1999
time: 00:12
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quote:
Originally posted by JosefGiven on 01-15-2001 06:42 PM
I must say, I oppose this TINS movement...My troops are on their way to crush it mercilessly.
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They will be met, and returned to you supporters of the Cause...
quote:
While there is a lot of truth concerning over-complexity in your argument, I would say one of the great strengths of the two original Civs is the feeling you get that you are re-writing the history books.
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Yes, but why do you get that feelings? Because your troops just swept through Rome? Because you just manipulated a foreign leader into signing a treaty that makes them nothing more than your puppet state? Because you built the first factory in the world, ushering in the industrial revolution? Or because you rezoned the old downtown business district to allow people to live over the bookstore?
The question is, what is good complexity? What feels bigger when you deal with the details, and what just gets dull? The dull stuff needs to stay abstracted as much as possible, or it drags down the rest of the game.
quote:
Oh, and let's have no more of this extremist TINS movement, if you please
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You can not stop the revolution...the dialectic dictates what will come next. Soon, the proletariat will rise, shaking off the chains of their oppressive masters, and what good will your bourgeois sensibilities be to yo--
Oh. Sorry. Wrong movement.
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Brent
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if This Is Not Sim History, it probably ought to change its name. I like the concept, but the acronym doesn't do it justice. I would like the game to take less time, at least not a lot more time. I don't want to be working on the same game every night for more than a week. If possible, I want more hisorically realistic elements, but streamlined gameplay. I certainly think it could stand to be more hitorical than Civ2. I do think that fun is more important than realism, and the concept of being a historical game is what makes it sound fun for most people who see it in the stores, I think. I guess governors, mayors, advisors, and automated units can allow for the realism and the fun. I do not want to have to calculate equations in order to play the game. How many people would've picked up the original if you had to? The game should appeal to as wide a variety of gamers as possible without selling out. So add all the realism that doesn't require complexity. More variables do provide more challenge. If emigration would mean similarities to Colonization, then good. A for Abe Lincoln or Caesar living 6000 years, how about if the default name for the player is the name of the Civ's primary god? of course, for America this would be "Money". And what is so wayward about SMAC?
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JosefGiven
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Tavistock, Devon, UK
Jan 2001
time: 05:12
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Bell, in a very well-put and amusing  response to a reply I posted in this thread, said:
quote:
why do you get that feelings? Because your troops just swept through Rome? Because you just manipulated a foreign leader into signing a treaty that makes them nothing more than your puppet state? Because you built the first factory in the world, ushering in the industrial revolution? Or because you rezoned the old downtown business district to allow people to live over the bookstore?
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This is the debate about how far, and to what level should micromanagement go in Civ III.
One area where I agree with TINS sentiment is that at all costs Civ III should avoid being over-complex. In fact, I have said this before. I think the original reason Bell posted this thread was because he had a fear that our beloved game would become little more than a spreadsheet...a game totally inaccessable to all but the most hardened number-juggler and stat-jockey.
I could not agree more. I don't want this, you don't want this, no-one wants this.
But, and this is where I start to make my point, folks; the reason we all still write threads and posts on this forum, using a game five/six years old (Civ 2, of course) as a reference point, is that game had a magic that appeals to everyone. The way I look at it, Civ 2 has the most complex gameplay seen in any game EVER. (It's various offshoots not included).
The reason the almost frightening level of complexity in Civ 2 does not overwhelm us, is that these intricate, pioneering gaming concepts were put into practice in a very user friendly way.
"Civ 2 isn't complex!!" I can almost hear, as Civers the world over below in unison. Stick it next to the likes of Half-Life, Settlers, Command and Conquer. In terms of gamplay, it's positively cerebral!
There is room for increased complexity in Civ III, it just has to be handled well, and in a user friendly fashion.
Like the 'bloodlust' option, or the ability to choose opposing Civs in Civ 2, the option should be added to add/remove complexities to suit the needs of each gamer...
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Josef Given
josefgiven@hotmail.com
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JosefGiven
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Tavistock, Devon, UK
Jan 2001
time: 05:12
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Right, I felt I said rather a lot in my last post, so I'm starting a fresh one before I make my next point...
quote:
Personally, I think it's that you have to be creative in your actions. You're given a (relatively, given the scope) simple set of rules, and told 'Ok, apply these rules as best you can. I'll do the same, and we'll see what we can see.' Complexity that adds more opportunity for creativity is good....
...Complexity that adds formulas with few variables is bad.
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Another few words of wisdom from Bell
This is where I agree again...But, you do (Bell, this is) concour here that there is room for more complexity.
Right, what I would like to do in this thread, is continue the pro-realism debate.
I have already established in a previous post that I think the key to the original old school civ atmosphere is it's link with history as we know it. Of course there are inherant weaknesses in this argument...
quote:
"If you want realism, play two turns and die of old age."
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How can we resolve this?  ...I don't think we can...it's just going to remain one of the quirks of civ.
But, now let's take a look at CtP, SMAC and ToT. Each, in it's own way, is guilty of straying from the history books. I don't like the CtP because of it's (I hesitate to use the word) 'silly' post-modern and futuristic units...they feel cartoony and tacky, and ultimately remind me I'm playing a computer game. SMAC was a bold move...civ in space...Some good ideas came out in the game, some of which, I think Sid said were going to make it to Civ III. But ultimately, the Sci-Fi angle crippled the game's atmosphere, for me. ToT. Don't even go there. Those graphics! Arrgh!  But I digress. Taking the 'extended original' game as my grounds for criticism, did anyone really take those genetically engineered units seriously? I ask you...
To sum up, in order to survive with a place in our hearts, Civ III HAS to have a base in our human history, or at least feel like it does. With no historical basis, and with the complexity stripped from it...Sid and the Firaxis team will create a monster...
Turn based Command and Conquer, anyone? 
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Josef Given
josefgiven@hotmail.com
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Koyaanisqatsi
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of Maine paupers.
May 1999
time: 00:12
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quote:
Originally posted by JosefGiven on 01-17-2001 02:04 PM
I think the original reason Bell posted this thread was because he had a fear that our beloved game would become little more than a spreadsheet...a game totally inaccessable to all but the most hardened number-juggler and stat-jockey.
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Well...yes and no. You're right, I don't want Firaxis to have to bundle Excel as a required component of the game. But that's not all of it. If you look at the complexity level in Civ/CivII/SMAC, it isn't really that deep, but it is very broad.
The big failing of a lot of 4x games (and what Sid always seems to get right) is that they don't correctly balance short term tasks with long term goals. (Just to get terminology out of the way: tasks, in CivII, would be things like optimizing a city for growth, building a unit, or placing a tile improvement. Goals are things like sending out your first settler, exploring a continent overseas, and preparing your military for a large offensive.)
In order for a game to be fun, two things need to happen. First, tasks need to be simple, quick, and easy. This is a UI issue, and is absolutely critical. Second, tasks need to build vertically to goals. Tasks should not require more than a couple other tasks to complete; this makes the game feel nitpicky and bogs things down. Goals, on the other hand, have to require lots of tasks, all of which must be done sequentially.
Think of the tech tree. Say there's a certain technology you need four branches up the tree. In order to get it, you have to discover seven individual techs. It's a lot more fun to discover the first two techs, which unlocks the third, then discover that one etc., than it would be to have all seven prereqs available to you immediately. Going vertically up the tree, you feel like you're making progress. If you have all seven prereqs there, it doesn't make any difference what order you grab them in, you're moving horizontally on the tree and won't feel like you're making progress until you finally reach your goal.
When you move horizontally, you lose the fun of accomplishing each individual task, and are left with only accomplishing goals. Tasks have to feel like they move you significantly closer to completing a goal for a game to be fun.
That's what I worry about losing in complexity. Look at one of the trade suggestions that was made recently. It said that, before you can build a unit, you would have to have specific resources available in your trade system. So, say, if you wanted to build a tank, maybe you'd need to have iron ore and oil. Compare the task/goal situation between this and the current CivII system.
Current CivII
Goal: Produce tank.
 Task: Research appropriate tech prereq.
Task: Find city with appropriate shield production level.
Task: Switch production in that city to tank.
Supply-based system:
Goal: Produce tank.
Task: Research appropriate tech prereq.
Task: Find city with appropriate shield production level.
Task: Find city with oil resources.
Task: Create trade route from oil to tank production site.
Task: Find city with iron ore resources.
Task: Create trade route from iron ore to tank production site.
Task: Switch production in that city to tank.
See all the horizontal movement? That's going to be a boring system...and, to answer what you said, that is what I'm afraid of. Horizontal complexity is bad. Vertical complexity is good.
quote:
The way I look at it, Civ 2 has the most complex gameplay seen in any game EVER. (It's various offshoots not included).
The reason the almost frightening level of complexity in Civ 2 does not overwhelm us, is that these intricate, pioneering gaming concepts were put into practice in a very user friendly way.
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And that the complexity is almost all vertical. You're right though, complexity is what has allowed the game to live for so long...
[This message has been edited by Bell (edited January 17, 2001).]
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JosefGiven
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Tavistock, Devon, UK
Jan 2001
time: 05:12
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Ah! I think I'm starting to see your point! The fundamental difference between vertical and horizontal complexity...'good' and 'bad' complexity.
OK, to follow on from this, I would suggest that a few more horizontal branches at the base of the Civ III model would allow scope for more vertical level challenges... Can I think of an example? Hmmm...
Lets try the resource management concept.
If it's not too presumtuous to attempt to guess your thinking, it seems as if you see the idea of having to gather resources AS WELL as having to sort out production output as pure unnecessary horizontal complexity. Fair play, perfectly understandable.
But, how about this? If you make it very easy for players to gather resources, ie: Have special resource squares la Civ 2, but rather than yield trade/production/food bonuses, they produce these here contentious resources. Then, instead of having to source these resources about your civ via caravans, or whatever, they go to a 'national' pool, whereby all the cities in your civ can access them. Not only that, but any resources that go unused in your turn go to a national stockpile for use in future turns, and trade with foreign civs.
Right, that I think limits the horizonal complexities required to support the resource-gathering/management as much as possible. Now let us explore the possible vertical complexity benefits:
Vastly improved, and dare I say it, more realistic, inter-civ trading possibilities.
The possibility of comedy trade back-stabs!
Piracy in the CtP vein
Well, you know what I mean. There are loads of possibilities in there, as many other people on these forums have suggested in better ways than I could.
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Josef Given
josefgiven@hotmail.com
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Koyaanisqatsi
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of Maine paupers.
May 1999
time: 00:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Ralf on 01-17-2001 06:33 PM
If you havent already, check out below mammoth-thread, that wined up to evolve around the exact same simplicity/complexity- and gameplay/reality-discussion as in this thread.
Click About health and protective border tolls
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I can't read the whole thing because it's too long, but I did skim it. A couple of points:
Scenarios--I've played some scenarios, but there's really only two that I enjoyed as much as the original game: East Wind, Rain, which was amazing, and Avalon, which I liked primarily because I made it based on a book I read.
Why don't I like scenarios? Well, for the same reason I don't like mayors, actually. Being the selfish little egomaniac that I am, when I play Civ-esque games, my empire has to be mine. I don't want the AI making decisions for me, and I don't want other people placing cities for me, historically accurate or not. A big part of the fun of Civ is growth and expansion, of which most scenarios don't really provide much.
AI--You know why a lot of suggestions would prove so difficult to program an effective AI for? Because there's so much horizontal complexity to them. AI's are very bad at horizontal complexity. Too many options that all do the same thing, and no real way to assign a priority to them...you end up having to program either very specific instructions, which makes the AI predictable, or program it to choose randomly, which makes it ineffective. Vertical complexity, however, is much easier to program for, since it involves lots of sequential actions that can be easily prioritized.
Um...I had another comment about something in that thread, but I forgot it now.....oops.
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Koyaanisqatsi
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of Maine paupers.
May 1999
time: 00:12
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quote:
Originally posted by JosefGiven on 01-17-2001 06:40 PM
OK, to follow on from this, I would suggest that a few more horizontal branches at the base of the Civ III model would allow scope for more vertical level challenges...
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True, but there are limits. If you increase the base horizontal complexity too much, then the whole game gets unwieldy. Admittedly, there's room to add horizontal complexity to the CivII model without going too far...you just can't add huge amounts of it.
quote:
But, how about this? If you make it very easy for players to gather resources, ie: Have special resource squares la Civ 2, but rather than yield trade/production/food bonuses, they produce these here contentious resources. Then, instead of having to source these resources about your civ via caravans, or whatever, they go to a 'national' pool, whereby all the cities in your civ can access them. Not only that, but any resources that go unused in your turn go to a national stockpile for use in future turns, and trade with foreign civs.
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Yep, that sounds much better. I still have problems with that specific idea, but you applied what I was talking about as far as complexity goes.
By the way, my issue with that idea is still a complexity problem, but a different kind. Unit production is a very, very basic function in Civ. The only thing more basic is resource harvesting, which is the base of all power in CivII. (As an aside, that's why ICS is such a sticky problem to solve...power comes from resources, and more cities mean more resources. Any change to that has to be very precisely balanced, or the game is shot. I'll believe they have ICS fixed when I see it.) Anyways, as I was saying before I was so rudely interrupted...I don't think that there should be artifical limits on unit production because it's such a basic function. It has a lot of potential to add strategy with fights over resources, but it would be too difficult to balance. Imagine if you started in an area with no oil, and were never able to break out of there. What chance do you think you would have for winning?
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Brent
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Okay, maybe Civ shouldn't be like Sim City, but do you think some other game might fill that role?
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Ralf
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Sweden
Mar 2000
time: 06:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Bell on 01-18-2001 07:08 PM
I don't want the AI making decisions for me, and I don't want other people placing cities for me, historically accurate or not.
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If above is a comment on the pre-designated AI-city placement idea, i must correct you, by emhasizing that this idea normally only applies to AI-civs alone - NOT to the human player. Once civers give themselves time to really read through and understand this idea, its not hard to see what really great potentials it has.
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A big part of the fun of Civ is growth and expansion, of which most scenarios don't really provide much.
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Well, partly i tend to agree. But, scenarios shouldnt be just about rewamped rules/graphics in advanced mid- and late-game setups. I miss the ability to play standard early-game setups scenarios, with only 2-3 starting cities for each Civ. Thanks to the pre-designated AI-city placement idea, any scenario-designer can then tailor-cut exactly where and how the AI-civs should place their cities and expand their empires. This, together with template-guiding city-area tile-improvement and template CI/unit building priorities pretty much ensure stronger AI-civ competition. The human player can of course choose to place his cities, and expand his empire anyway he likes to. The player has complete freedom.
The whole issue above, is about taking out that stupid AI-settler out from the equation; both then it comes to placing AI-cities and developing AI-city areas. One only has to look at mayor-controled settlers/terraformers to understand how weak artificially intelligent unit-pathfinding really is - at least on huge totally random maps, like the ones in Civ-games.
quote:
you end up having to program either very specific instructions, which makes the AI predictable, or program it to choose randomly, which makes it ineffective.
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I keep my fingers crossed for a "spoonfeed-able" AI, there text-file tweaking players, can guide exactly what different AI-civs should emphasize, then it comes to overal principal strategic/logistic choices.
About the "predictable-problem":
Firstly, I dont think we should exaggerate how un-predictable human multiplayer often playes Civ-games. We all have our favourite (= predictable) strategies that we tend to stick to again and again.
Secondly; there is no reason why we couldnt have several parallell text-files with civ-specific instructions, from which the AI can choose randomly between with each new fresh game.
quote:
Vertical complexity, however, is much easier to program for, since it involves lots of sequential actions that can be easily prioritized.
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Yes, but before any Civ AI-programmer can prioritize, he must first gather ALL feedback-info each turn. This is very simple in games like tic-tac-toe, and somewhat harder in games like Chess.
But, the bigger the board/map/world is, and the more possible variables/combinations there are, and the more fuzzy-logic rules there are in the game, the harder it becomes to produce any half-decent AI-restistance. Check out http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum6/HTML/001531.html
This is why it is so very important to come up with ideas that can "spoonfeed" AI-civs in how to achieve better restistance - whether, this help deals with emphasize-guiding self-maturing AI-city areas, AI-city- and AI-unit improvement editable paths, editable AI-tech-tree paths, pre-designated invisible AI-city placements (which nevertheless starts and expands either unpredictably from any pre-designated point, in the main-game, or perhaps according to editable scripts, in scenarios), Strategic diplomacy thumb-rules, and much more.
[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited January 21, 2001).]
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Koyaanisqatsi
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of Maine paupers.
May 1999
time: 00:12
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quote:
If above is a comment on the pre-designated AI-city placement idea
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It wasn't really. All I meant was that I didn't like scenarios because they usually started with most of my cities already built.
As far the link you mentioned, I can't say I like that idea of scrapping the map generator. Yes, the net allows you to download all kinds of handmade maps, but it's better to have a system built in to the game that gives you infinite maps. It would be nice for scenarios and custom maps though if the hooks were in place to give the AI sites to build locations though. On random maps, the AI's would just be on their own.
quote:
Firstly, I dont think we should exaggerate how un-predictable human multiplayer often playes Civ-games. We all have our favourite (= predictable) strategies that we tend to stick to again and again.
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Oh, I think human players are more predictable than the AI's. Doesn't mean the AI's can't get even less prediactable.
quote:
Secondly; there is no reason why we couldnt have several parallell text-files with civ-specific instructions, from which the AI can choose randomly between with each new fresh game.
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Works for me.
quote:
But, the bigger the board/map/world is, and the more possible variables/combinations there are, and the more fuzzy-logic rules there are in the game, the harder it becomes to produce any half-decent AI-restistance
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This is exactly what I mean. Vertical complexity reduces variables and provides more structure for an AI to use. Horizontal complexity adds lots of variables, with no real way for an AI to choose between them.
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Ralf
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Sweden
Mar 2000
time: 06:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Bell on 01-21-2001 11:37 AM
As far the link you mentioned, I can't say I like that idea of scrapping the map generator. Yes, the net allows you to download all kinds of handmade maps, but it's better to have a system built in to the game that gives you infinite maps.
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A short note: I quickly abandoned the idea of scrapping the map-generator further down the thread, because it really didnt collided with my main "invisible pre-designated AI-city placement" idea. My very last post in that thread is a short summarization of the whole idea, by the way.
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On random maps, the AI's would just be on their own.
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IF Firaxis can implement the idea together with the automatic map-generator, and IF the AI-cities, as a result of this, is placed noticeably more efficient; then they should of course implement it.
After all; its the practical end-result that should have the final verdict!
[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited January 21, 2001).]
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Brent
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Would SC4000 be a history game?
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Ralf
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Sweden
Mar 2000
time: 06:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Bell on 01-21-2001 03:43 PM
If you can program the map generator to find ideal city sites, why can't you give the same algorithm to the AI? It would be the same effect, but it would give the AI the chance to react to game conditions.
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Its much easier to calculate AI-city placements from top-left to bottom-right once-and-for-all, directly after the map is fresly generated, then it is to - in the middle of a game; navigate hordes of AI-settler, and then - in the midst of that short game-turn, with so many other duties thats calling for AI-attention - try to calculate best AI-city placements.
Heres an example how map-generated AI-city placements could be done - at least in theory:
"Infact, once the continents and the terrains of the map is generated, the map-generator then could continue in calculating potential 21-square AI "city-places" (or rather "city-areas") locations from up-left to down-right, shoulder-to-shoulder over the whole map. Only those areas who had its central square on terra-firma would be account for.
The map-generator should be able to calculate average values from from all 21 tiles in each AI city-area. The lower food/resource sustain threshold-values for such AI-city generated places should of course be manipulatable by the human player - giving him some control over what the map-generator AI should accept, or not.
Above by itself however, would give rather bad results because small 6-10 square island/capes would often be left out, and also not less important: the general AI-city distribution would be relatively squarish and unimaginative (= plain ugly). The shoulder-to-shoulder generation of AI city-areas should therefore be alloved to overlap, disjoin, disfigure each others areas max 1 square-row (the outer 12 squares - the 9 inner ones are untouchables). in random ways.
Also, (important!) this first map AI city-place sweep is followed by a several additional sweeps that distributes all the potential AI city-places in an alltogether different fasions. If these new sweeps finds any potential city-placements that has a better food/resource sustaine-value then the previously designated ones, 1-3 squares away - the new one automatically overrides any old weaker AI city-placements.
Finally, any second and above sweep coustal city-places should most often override any previous sweep 1-3 squares-away inland city-places. The reason for the latter is that the terrain on small/medium-sized island can be utilized much better, if coustal city-places have high priority."
----------------------------- added comment:
You can compare above with a map punctured with unlit red diodes all over it (= invisible for the human player). Under the actual game these AI-city "red diodes" is turned on (= habited; founded AI-city), one after the other.
[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited January 22, 2001).]
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15-01-2001 07:52
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