14-03-2002 22:53									#1
	Hurry up and release 1.18! I can't take the AI's tech trading any more! Inflate your Upload Space

This intolerable new tech trading by the AI has sucked the fun right out of the game! Please Firaxis, release a fix right away! Was there no testing on this most recent patch whatsoever?

	15-03-2002 01:27									#2
	The faster the better, I suppose !! Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

So, so, sooo impatient !

Must admit though,

can hardly wait myself.

I find myself playing less and less.

Becoming Apolytonized!

If they'd fixe it soon,
maybe the game can have a chance in comparison to MOO3.

Boy, expectations are running high on that one ...

Will it be as good and innovative and, most importantly, as terrifying addictive as MOO2?

Meanwhile, CIV3 could be great though,

just a matter of engagement I suppose?

Come on guys (you know who) ...

FAIR?
AJ

	15-03-2002 01:32									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

REDUCE TECH ACCELERATIONS:

a definite NOW !

Please.

Bring back the fun.

Kind of miss it lately ...

AJ

	15-03-2002 02:03									#4
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

exactly what did they do that ruined ai tech trading? is it that bad?

	15-03-2002 02:17									#5
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Dissident exactly what did they do that ruined ai tech trading? is it that bad?

There are some threads on the topic elsewhere.

Generally: civ trade almost everything ASAP among each other and by the time you have properly settled and built some forces they rapidly become obsolete ...

IMO there is too less time to enjoy combat experiencing during ancient and medieval eras. Planning one campaign will mean no problem, but executing two campaigns (a minimum requirement for two eras!) with ancient units will be too difficult!

Many players report about deity space race wins on standard maps around 1200 AD !!!

AJ

	15-03-2002 02:18									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Just miss those massive ancient combat thrills ..!

AJ

	15-03-2002 02:59									#7
	Re: Hurry up and release 1.18! I can't take the AI's tech trading any more! Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by monkspider This intolerable new tech trading by the AI has sucked the fun right out of the game! Please Firaxis, release a fix right away! Was there no testing on this most recent patch whatsoever?

Yes please release 1.18 right away! Skip a long beta
test cycle! -- oh wait that's how we got into trouble with 1.17

	15-03-2002 03:55									#8
	Oh where, oh where has my 1.18 gone??? Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Yes I am finding the tech trading and rapid expansion of the AI a bit overwhelming. I usually play Monarch and am losing by the time AI reaches Modern day, I am still discovering Cavalry, etc. Twelve games so far on the patch(1.17f) and I like most of what's in the patch but the horrendous AI "cheats" are getting to me and souring me on this game. It's a great game but man I am starting to get frustrated.

I do hope this will be addressed in the next patch. But for the life of me I don't have a conrcete suggestion as to how this should be implemented. Of course the Firaxians will know, but I hope it's a quantative and balanced fix. Oh yeah combat is still a problem, three elite swordsman taken out by one conscript barabarian???? Tanks vs. Phalanx's not so bad anymore but still some boner moves in certain battles. No it's not me, i am quite content and fairly versed in the Art of CIV Warfare.

Oh yeah last thing, down with barbarian rushes, even on "roaming", I had four cities attacked by 4 stacks of 10+ barabarian horseman. THAT was on ROAMING. It wiped out my treasury, PYRAMID and ORACLE builds and hacked down my cities in 1 a piece. This is ridiculous on "roaming". I'd expect this at raging.

Here are few things I do just to survive.

-Archipelago's, keeps contact down.
-don't offer contacts between CIV's.
-go to war every once in a while and wipe out a few of their cities.
-Tech for GOLD, buy what you can.
-keep tech rate as high as you can.
-build the Great Library, libraries and Universities and all science inducing techs.

I know it's been threaded elsewhere but these are just my thoughts.

CIV III will rule one day, I'm sure of it.

	15-03-2002 04:34									#9
	Put an end to popups!

simple fix, blind research a la SMAC, and less AI tech trading, and fair deals for humans.

	15-03-2002 05:13									#10
	Its sad... Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

This tech trading thing has ruined the game. Before I played it constantly now I don't at all. The 1.18 patch was obviously not tested, its is very hard to miss the main problem with it. It ruinss the immersion of the game when every enemy has the exact same techs so I fall behind. I cant trade for or trade my own techs for anything reasonable. I congratulate Firaxis for screwing their game up with a PATCH!!!! Its a first for me to see a company so incompetent.

Used to love the game
waiting on next patch to fix tech trading....

	15-03-2002 05:24									#11
	Re: Oh where, oh where has my 1.18 gone??? Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Uncle Thade Here are few things I do just to survive. -keep tech rate as high as you can. ....

Ah, that is where you go wrong IMHO. At higher levels you want to keep the tech rate at ZERO most of the time (the exception being when you absolutely need that wonder that comes with the next tech, or that new government type).

Profit from the work the AI does, they can do research a lot better than you can! Then trade a resource for their advance, and repeat after 20 turns.

	15-03-2002 05:41									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I quit my last game(which was my first game in a month) because of this.
It seems worse since the last patch.
I was playing as the Japs on a real Earthmap.Restarted a few times to get the right starting spot (something else that should never have gotten past the dev team and SHOULD have been fixed by now! )16 civs.
Anyway- the Greeks started in Australia and Im the only civ to contact them.By the time everyone else was in the middle ages the greeks had still not even developed mapmaking.

All the other civs were constantly bugging me for contact and so I finally cracked and sold contact with the Greeks to everyone for as much gold as they would give.Before I did this I sold the Greeks all the tech they could affford, which wasnt much but I still broke their treasury.

THE NEXT TURN the Greeks were even in tech with everyone else!!!!!!

Its obvious the AI will even go so far as to GIVE techs away since I know the Greeks were broke -had nothing to trade(and even if they did they couldnt trade anyway because they had no harbors).Whenever I tried to trade techs the AI wanted 500-1000 gold-TWO techs -and my world map for one older tech that I didnt want to research.
Folks we are talking about 15 to 20 techs in ONE turn.
I mean WTF -Did that fag Alexander run around giving BJs to all the other leaders? Did he give them IOUs?Did he bend over and let them push him around their throneroom?
NO- the simple fact is that the AI CHEATS CHEATS CHEATS.
You hear all this talk about how much better The AI is compared to Civ2 and I say they just hid the cheating a little better.
Firaxis sucks - this game sucks-I give up for the last time.

	15-03-2002 06:01									#13
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I'd even be happier if they got rid of all tech trading. Anything is better than this.

	15-03-2002 12:18									#14
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

i'm starting to agree with the assertion that Firaxis and Infogrames represent Twiddle Dee and Twiddle Dum.

	15-03-2002 12:54									#15
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Evil_Eric_4 Folks we are talking about 15 to 20 techs in ONE turn. I mean WTF -Did that fag Alexander run around giving BJs to all the other leaders? Did he give them IOUs?Did he bend over and let them push him around their throneroom? NO- the simple fact is that the AI CHEATS CHEATS CHEATS.

No cheating, just a ridiculous tech devaluation. He probably sold his world map and perhaps ROPs to everybody.

	15-03-2002 13:11									#16
	Got spare money?

I fully support the thread.

In my current game, which may turn out te be the last under 1.17, the Dutch, Germans and Romans (me) had contact. The Dutch or Germans were leading the tech race, and I bought or stole my way after them. Around the year 800 the English and Americans were discovered.
I traded world maps and checked out the new neighbourhood. Ancient, Spearmen times, pathetic. I talked to the English and Americans and they were ahead of me in tech to the same level as the Dutch and Germans! Their civilisations just hadn't had time to implement all the new ideas yet. The Dutch and Germans had obviously dumped all their tech. It couldn't be called trade.
Just a lot of not-fun.




Robert

	15-03-2002 13:42									#17
	Put an end to popups!

I just want to voice that i think they crippled the enjoyment of the game with the current tech trading and pop rushing rules.

Spending money on tech research should have a high priority in this game. As it is, it isn't worth doing at all.

The AI cripples itself during a post communism war. Only then does research become a viable option.

Firaxis is so worried about stratagies bring fair to the AI, they forget that we are the ones that paid money for the game and have a right to enjoy it. We are *suppose* to take advantage of the AI weaknesses.

	15-03-2002 13:49									#18
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I set research to 0. Buy tech to get it.

Then when my core cities all have Uni's I go for the lead. Sometimes works.

BTW. Contact is a good thing. The more civs you are in contact with who have the tech you want, the cheaper it is to buy.

The bottom line is that the human can use the system just as easily as the AI does.

Although, I will hand it to the critics, setting research at 0 as the key to victory is very counter-intuitive for a Civ type of game.

Salve

	15-03-2002 14:07									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

nye

i have noticed the exact same thing, that it is much cheaper to buy techs than it is to research them, until late in the game when many civs are dead, and the other civs are embroiled in MPP wars and are self destructing because of the draft and forced labor, and out of the three or four civs left, one usually cannot afford to buy or research all of the techs unlike in the early game, so you don't get nearly as much of a devaluation bonus, then that is when you actually start to research...but buying techs can still prove fairly cost effective

the only ways they can fix this imo is to limit devaluation, make the AI sell the tech for more, and make the AI sell tech cheaper to civs it likes and not sell techs to civs it is furious at

	15-03-2002 14:16									#20
	Put an end to popups!

makes me glad I don't play with the patch

this game is getting worse. but I still have hope, or else I wouldn't be here.

	15-03-2002 14:23									#21
	Remove this text

What makes you think they won't break the game even further with the next patch? I can imagine Soren deciding that buying tech is an "exploit," and somehow getting rid of that, rather than actually fixing anything.

	15-03-2002 15:38									#22
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Kilroy_Alpha What makes you think they won't break the game even further with the next patch? I can imagine Soren deciding that buying tech is an "exploit," and somehow getting rid of that, rather than actually fixing anything.

This is part of the problem. They are so worried about thier precious AI getting exploited, they ruin the gameplay for the ppl that pay money for it.

Games are suppose to be fun and this lost alot of it.

Q: hmmm... why am i here posting instead of playing??
A: THEY RUINED THE FREAKING GAME!!!!

	15-03-2002 17:52									#23
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Game works great. If you don't like the AI tech trading, you would like mine worse. Trading is a good strategy, so you must be a part of the trading network.

However, you should not be able to trade resources, luxuries or techs unless you have a friendly road connecting your civs. If I am between you and the spices you want, you should have to go around.

	15-03-2002 18:29									#24
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Hmmm... let me think. Isn't the entire point of a computer game to outwit the AI? We certainly don't play them to win money, or enhance our relationships, or increase our cardiovascular fitness.

	15-03-2002 22:16									#25
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by mimi Hmmm... let me think. Isn't the entire point of a computer game to outwit the AI?

I thought it was to HAVE FUN.



Also, shut up. If you think this is the entire point of a computer game you need to get out. You outwit humans, an AI has no wits to outwit in the first place.

	15-03-2002 23:34									#26
	Ribannah... Suffering from ads?

The only problem with that is what if your starting location doesn't enable you to trade for techs, (lack of resources or luxuries)? Still, it needs fixing no matter what. I will certainly try this 0 tech rate thing... wunderbar! Thanks.

	15-03-2002 23:51									#27
	Support Apolyton

I think that this problem has to do with tech values devalueating. There has been some dicussion about this Strategy forum. When the Computer players trade tach with themselfs it devalueates the tech each time. Also now the computer will not pay that much for techs that are not worth that much. The main problem I think is that they tried to stop the common pratice of human players trading tech to the computer for hugh amounts of money and the pop rush that many human players did before the patch. This in turn cause the tech values to devalueate so fact that you are in the modern age by 1200 AD and the fact that the computer drafts and pop rushes so much that it ruins it's cities beyond repair. I am confident that they will fix it in the next patch. In one game I started after I installed the new patch I was able to tech trade with the computer players, and I am getting about 400 to 500 gpt, but the ages go by so fast their is no time to enjoy them. One I might try and see if I can go into the editor and see if I can fix the tect devauleating problem myself and the problem with the AI pop rushing itself to death.

	16-03-2002 00:43									#28
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by mimi Hmmm... let me think. Isn't the entire point of a computer game to outwit the AI? We certainly don't play them to win money, or enhance our relationships, or increase our cardiovascular fitness.

Doh! There goes my retirement plans.

	16-03-2002 01:00									#29
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Hey all,

Just so you know, Firaxis is definitely looking at changing the tech devaluation (a major factor in the "backwards civ catches up in one turn syndrome) and progress rate. For those interested in knowing a bit more about how this works, see:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=42905

and

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=43559

You can see from the second one that Soren specifically indicated Firaxis is looking at the problem.

I just wanted to make sure you all knew that.

-Arrian

	16-03-2002 01:41									#30
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I am in complete agreement with the original post. The tech trading with the latest patch has DESTROYED the game. All the civs are the same, and it's me against the world. If a civ askes me to trade for a tech during their turn and I sell it to them, every other civ is guaranteed to have that tech that same turn. The crappy part about it, is that the civ I sell the tech to will sell it to the other civs for very little (1 or 2 gold). I never sell techs to civs during their turns anymore. The civs need to trade techs less, or at least require more in trade from other civs! FIX THIS FAST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!