16-03-2002 11:20									#1
	Two Camps and should there be a declaration of war? Increase Your PM Length

It is no secret that the regular posters here are divided into three camps, the critics, the fanboys, and the neutrals.

But, who is in which camp? Vel, for example was once a fanboy and is now a critic. Yin, well, we know where he stands. I wonder, shouldn't we have a list somewhere that identifies who is in which group?

I thing this would be a good thing.

How do you feel about this and which group are you in?

Secondly, shouldn't we just go ahead and have an outright declaration of war. A civil war mind you, in the spirit of Vel's recent thread, in which bonafide members of each group agree to refrain from personal attacks and focus instead in meaningful debate.

Is a war (formal debate) justified? And, shouldn't we hire some judges with formal debate experience to moderate the proceedings?

A formal debate would, I think, settle this issue once and for all.

	16-03-2002 11:31									#2
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The problem is it is a matter of opinion in most cases. The game sucks if you don't enjoy playing it, and is good if you do. People can debate all they want, but it doesn't change how each person enjoys the game. It wouldn't settle anything because each camp is right in their views, if not always in how they express those views.

	16-03-2002 11:39									#3
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Well, as a critic, I think that a formal debate would eliminate this POV that its a matter of "whether someone likes it or not". I think that the game can be "proved" inferior to other earlier releases if we apply the rules of formal debate with trained judges.

I don't think its a issue of opinion at all.

	16-03-2002 11:45									#4
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I'm in the neutral camp.

	16-03-2002 11:45									#5
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Just a post to throw bullets into the fire.

Initial release of Civ2, widely reviled by Civ1 vets.
Initial release of Ctp, widely reviled by Civ2 vets.
Initial release of SMAC, widely reviled by Civ2 and Ctp vets.
Initial release of Ctp2, widely reviled because the first was so poorly received.
Initial release of Civ3, widely reviled by Civ2, SMAC and Ctp2 vets.

I guess this puts me into the neutral camp.

	16-03-2002 11:46									#6
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It's hard to classify most people, other than the extremists. When dealing in matters of opinion I like to take the less obvious (from my standpoint) side in many cases. I'd be pointing out the flaws with Civ3 myself if they hadn't already been so overstated in numerous threads. I would like to see a more in depth combat system, diplomacy, slower tech rate, a wider range of government choices, and a valid scenario editor. The arguments for those things have already gone far past what I feel is needed though.

	16-03-2002 11:53									#7
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A game's worth is in it's entertainment value. An inferior game is one which doesn't entertain. No game will entertain everyone equally. All this adds up to each person having their own valuation of the games worth. How much I enjoy the game is not up for debate. I know this "value" to be what it is. Your valuation of the game will be different most likely, and is just as valid of an observation in it's own right.

I personally feel SMAC was a better game for it's time. I tried going back and playing SMAC a few times since I first played Civ3. Each time the gameplay just feels outdated to me now, I prefer Civ3 even though SMAC was a great game. Not everyone is going to agree with any comparison of different games. It would be like debating which color is your favorite. Everyone has their valid opinion, but no opinion can be valid if applied to everyone.

	16-03-2002 12:00									#8
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Already painted into a corner, I feel the need to make a ridiculos statement explaining how the fate of the free world is inextricably intertwined with the need to "prove" that Firaxis failure to provide an acceptable sequel to Civ's sequel demonstrates the moral decline of Western civilization.


That position might be a tad difficult to defend in a formal debate.

	16-03-2002 12:14									#9
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From Firaxis' (and Infogrames) standpoint there is a "best" game. This is the one that pleases the most paying customers. If you want to get a roll of who is in which camp, this might help "prove" to Firaxis what their customers want.

There is a common perception (whether valid or not) that critics tend to be more outspoken in their views. The more extreme the critic, the more outspoken they are. Those who are generally pleased with the game don't feel the need to come onto the message boards and post their support for the game as much.

If compiling a list of where posters stand could show Firaxis that future releases won't be as supported, then it makes an impact. As the number of posters here only makes up a small percentage of overall Civ players, it would be difficult to show.

	16-03-2002 12:41									#10
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Well, the most damning evidence of the purely pathetic essence of Civ3 is that someone like me, who is a hopeless hardcore game player, finds more entertainment criticizing a game than playing it.

	16-03-2002 13:16									#11
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Aye, but to Firaxis you are in the statistical minority until you prove otherwise. How many copies did/will Civ3 sell? At best (worst?) there are a couple hundred people on the message boards ranting about how bad a game it is.

	16-03-2002 16:40									#12
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Can not agree with such camps.

Actually, we also have a camp of whiners, who whine but no constructive criticism. Both fanboys and good critics are making some constructive criticism.

I love the game like I dunno what, but I have also made some constructive criticism about a few things. Constructive, mind you, is criticism with possible solutions.

	16-03-2002 18:00									#13
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quote: Initial release of Civ2, widely reviled by Civ1 vets. Initial release of Ctp, widely reviled by Civ2 vets. Initial release of SMAC, widely reviled by Civ2 and Ctp vets. Initial release of Ctp2, widely reviled because the first was so poorly received. Initial release of Civ3, widely reviled by Civ2, SMAC and Ctp2 vets.

I also think there is a tendency for more experienced Civ-gamers to be critical of previous versions. I dont think that this tendency explains the current level of criticism however. In my case for example,
CIV loved it
CIV2 loved it
SMAC/SMACX loved it
ctp2 CIV2 with some interesting variations
CIV3 CIV2 with some improvements and many many problems.

Given the time between CIV2 and CIV3 I was expecting a lot more. I would say that I'm in a criitically-neutral camp. If they come out with MP and (much better) editor for free and some more patches my response will shift to more positive.

Unfortunately, I think we're going to see the same process that we did with CIV2. Sell CIV2. After seeing the huge success of the mods made by gamers produce and sell CIV2 "fantastic worlds" with a better editor. Finally sell CIV2 "Gold" wth multiplayer. If CIV3 had been a better game (for me) I might have bought more versions, but it's not. I'll not pay a penny more for any more versions.

quote: Actually, we also have a camp of whiners, who whine but no constructive criticism. Both fanboys and good critics are making some constructive criticism.

I dont think fanboys includes critics of the game does it? Almost by definition a "fanboy" doesnt see the faults in CIV3.

	16-03-2002 18:00									#14
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I don't see a single group I would fit in. Probably I belong in all three.

- I'm a fanboy, because I enjoy to play the game even with it's flaws, I like the culture and strategic resources, and some other changes like caravans and terraforming being removed. Even with the corruption and the culture flipping I can live, although this brings me to the next group:

- I'm a critic, because I don't like, that the game in it's current state has a very limited fun factor. It is not well balanced. Tech trading is broken, pop rushing and drafting has turned from too powerful to almost unusable. Navies are too slow. Corruption, while it's a good feature limiting expansion in the landgrab phase, turns into a serious problem later. Culture flipping during wars occurs too often and IMHO it's bad for fun, that I have to raze an enemy to effective defeat him. There is much potential, and I'm sure that the game can and will be improved. Ah yes, last not least, Firaxis still owes us MP and scenarios.

- I'm neutral because I don't like both extrema: whining and ranting without constructive criticism, and at the other side praising the game as being perfect.

	16-03-2002 20:05									#15
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quote: Actually, we also have a camp of whiners, who whine but no constructive criticism. Both fanboys and good critics are making some constructive criticism.

There are just as many positive whiners (for lack of a better phrase), who just say, "Civ III is great! If you don't like it, play something else!" as they are negative whiners who say "Civ III sucks! I hate it!", without offering any valid criticism.

Actually, I would say that there are more positive whiners than negative ones. Most of the people who don't like the game have at least one reason why they don't like it.

	16-03-2002 20:53									#16
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while i like civ3, and think they really have made alot of worthwhile improvements, i also think they rushed civ3 out for christmas and that it could have better and less frustrating if they had of waited until the scenario editor was finished and at least PBEM worked

overall the attention to detail that made SMAC so great was not in civ3 either, but SMAC had to immerse the player more since it was SciFi and people don't know what MMI, while everyone knows that gunpowder is

while i think civ3 is the best game in the civ genre yet, i don't think it is as good as it could have been, and losing 7 months of development time by brian reynolds and the rest of BHG leaving is probably the number one cause of most of the problems

though i don't blame BR and BHG they had an oppertunity to make it from themselves and they took it, it's the american way, and soren and Jeff Briggs did a pretty good job with civ3, they just needed about 7 more months

	17-03-2002 00:04									#17
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick Well, the most damning evidence of the purely pathetic essence of Civ3 is that someone like me, who is a hopeless hardcore game player, finds more entertainment criticizing a game than playing it.

So true.

I find myself wishing I had started a game of Civ II when I play Civ 3.

	17-03-2002 00:32									#18
	Remove this text

I actually dislike Civ3's full-screen view, and prefer Civ2's more "Standard Windows Program" look, but I have to admit that I like Civ3's nuke animations better. BOOM. owie

Banana

	17-03-2002 01:57									#19
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Bah, Civ3 nukes are little more than firecrackers when compared to SMAC's planet busters.

I'm much like Sir Ralph, in that I could fit in all three camps. While I can't really say Civ3 is a great game, it's not really a bad one either.

	17-03-2002 03:59									#20
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"It is no secret that the regular posters here are divided into three camps, the critics, the fanboys, and the neutrals. "

Fact or opinion? It seems to be presented as a fact... but critics, fanboys and neutrals? Not whiners, critics, fanboys and neutrals? I think an important class has been left out. The list, as proposed, sounds iffy to me

Rant
Formal debate: The best use of fromal debate is finding out who's the best formal debater. Oh hell - I'll just plainly state what I think about formal debate: It's idiotic. It's for people who either are
a) Rotten communicators/philosophers (in the sense of someone trained to logically think about and test ideas.)
b) Would be at each other's throats if they didn't have a "formal" framework
or
c) Like making speechs

Now - LOTS of people are poor communicators, untrained in philosophy, contentious, and like hearing themselves talk. For all those people formal debate is better than most alternatives... but it's a dinasaur. Gosh, do I despise formal debate.

Now, an impartially arbitrated "argument", where the arbitrator is willing and able to head off most fallacies (errors in logic, if not errors in fact) would be usefull. Debate - I spit in it's general direction.
Rant off.

"Not a matter of opinion at all." You can make pretty much _anything_ into "not a matter of opinion" if you carefully lay out the criteria by which the non-opnion will be rendered. Ok... now, how do you chose the cirteria? If choose everything that Civ2 was better at as your criteria then, sure, you'll "prove" that Civ2 is better. If you use different criteria then you can end up with a different result. So, jimmytrick - what are _your_ criteria, and (most importantly) why should we adopt them?

	17-03-2002 04:06									#21
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker I actually dislike Civ3's full-screen view, and prefer Civ2's more "Standard Windows Program" look, but I have to admit that I like Civ3's nuke animations better. BOOM. owie Banana

(I'd like you (skywalker) and jimmytrick to discuss your use of the words "prefer" "dislike" and "like.")

	17-03-2002 04:23									#22
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Senator, it depends on what your definition of "is" is.


Dan

	17-03-2002 04:35									#23
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umm, i think it's definatly the Fanboys who are camp

	18-03-2002 22:11									#24
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Where do I belong?

	19-03-2002 05:51									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Qilue Bah, Civ3 nukes are little more than firecrackers when compared to SMAC's planet busters.

Yes, the Planet Busters sure were impressive weren't they? Definitely a "Holy ****!" factor when someone wiped out one of your cities with one.

	19-03-2002 06:21									#26
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Can we have a "pukers" category for those of us who (i) poke our head out of the OT, (ii) look around in the CivIII categories, (iii) see all the nauseating whinging, ranting, complaining, "I've been violated, I feel so used" crap (iv) puke and (v) go back to the OT?

Post the answer in the OT because after I clean up the vomit, that is where I'll be.