19-03-2002 12:22									#1
	Winning in deity mode without GL/MP/MIKE'S/LEO'S/SOL Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Yes, it's possible, but it isn't easy.
I had two or three games where i wasn't able to get one of these wonders:
-Marco Polo's Embassy
-Great Library
-Leonardo's
-Michelangelo's
-Statue of Liberty

It isn't easy to win, but it's possible.
Build 4 or 5 triremes, and two diplo's for each of them. Send them around the world and try to contact other civs. Let these diplos conquer unknown islands and continents. Be friendly, pay tribute if demanded, make peace, don't steal techs. Since you're weak, try to find allies. Trade techs. Build caravans and try to get the other wonders: Copernicus, J.S.Bach's, Hoover Dam, Newton's and so on.
Put the focus of your research to techs that haven't been invented yet by any nation.
Settle, settle, settle, trade, trade, trade (techs and goods).
Fill caravels/transport ships with caravans and send them to the other civs.

	19-03-2002 14:47									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Unless you're on a huge world the only one of those I would really miss is SoL (for early Commie/Fundy) of course Mike's is nice, but it is off the main tech tree so rarely comes my way.
Wouldn't be given the GL and Leo's is a mixed blessing - I do not like swapping vet Ironclads for green Destroyers.

As with most of these things it depends upon your personal gaming style just how much each WoW is worth to you -- try a few games with no Wonders - you will quickly find that all of them can be lived without - just some hurt more than others -

Now if you had said the Gardens

	19-03-2002 20:57									#3
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I used to consider certain wonders "must have" when I played SP.
But after all the years of MP where you don't always get all the wonders you want, I've determined that NO wonders are critical. The AI can be easily beat with none. (doesn't mean i never build them, they're just a nice convienence)

In MP, my two favorites are HG and SOL. Hg takes care of early happiness and growth and Communism takes care of the rest of the game. All the other wonders help, and I love getting them, but you have to get used to not having them or you'll be real disappointed in most of your games.

RAH

	19-03-2002 23:05									#4
	Full PM-box? Change here!

SG,

I've seen a lot of people complain about Leo's because it upgrades vet units to "green" ones, and your example of vet ironclads to non-vet destroyers is probably the worst case. But on balance I think Leo's is a huge plus. It's a joy to see your early warriors turn to musketeers, and even more to see my 30 or so settlers become instant engineers. Losing vet status hurts but it's a sacrifice I'm glad to make in return for the benefits.

	20-03-2002 07:00									#5
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Campo - The joy of Gunpowder is a mixed blessing! I like the warrior because it gives the base line in the shield box for incremental buying.

The Gardens, SoL and MPE are my favourites. On larger maps Marco's is very powerful. Unlike the GL you can choose your techs, and find out the location of other civs. You can also regulate your own research and that of the AI. As soon as you gain Republic give it away to everyone. Within a few turns most of the other nations will adopt that type of government. This allows your trading to be more lucrative as they will have larger and more trade rich cities. It also concentrates their "minds" on other things besides war with you!

The other advantage of Marco's is speeding your progress through the tech tree. If you are forced to research a tech you don't want, take one you know you can trade with an AI. Swap techs and then next turn the research options may offer the desired target.

Playing without wonders makes micro-management all important.


--------------------

SG(2)

	20-03-2002 10:51									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Very often,building wonders actually slows you down.You can do quite well without them..even in MP(which you do very often ).The camel and diplomat can overcome pretty much anything if you think about it.

	24-03-2002 00:48									#7
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Nothing is critical. I agree it makes you a better player if you can try and succeed at deity with no wonders. If I had to say what I'd miss most I'd pick HG. It's just always good, for both MP and SP.

	24-03-2002 16:46									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I only play SP, and lately have been playing without any wonders at all (instead of the 12-14 I usually try to build; btw, I never build GL or SoL). The only one I really miss is Leo's, because I hate taking the time/money to upgrade defensive units. Otherwise, though, I find it leads to a much more heavily trade-oriented game than I usually play, and now I know why heavy traders are the way they are -- the camel really does compensate for a lot.

	29-03-2002 12:48									#9
	Inflate your Upload Space

Been there, done that. But then again, you must have figured out how to do it mostly by yourself. I was pathetic until I came here.

	29-03-2002 16:04									#10
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Welcome back SD - where have you been - defected to CivIII?

Your wish is as always my command ...

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	30-03-2002 03:19									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Nice to see you using your qualifications so innovatively SG!

	31-03-2002 08:35									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits Welcome back SD - where have you been - defected to CivIII? Your wish is as always my command ...

UberKrux barely beat you to it. Yes, I have defected to CivIII. But I still love CivII. Go play my succession game.