21-03-2002 01:20									#31
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Doesn't matter if it's a federal police state or a local police state. It's still a police state.

And the WTC did not have the 2 tallest buildings in America.

	21-03-2002 01:27									#32
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse In 195? Eisenhower had to call out the Army to combat (not literally) one of the Southern states' NGs on the enforcement of Brown v. Board of Ed.

Yes you are right. But in the event of police state....The constitution assumes the National Guard/well regulated militia must offset to much federal influence.

So in the event of say. Bush decides to suspend the habius corpus and cancel elections, most of the constitution and sack 47 governers who are opposed to the move ; and he dispatch's the federal army for the task. How is he going to do this without stepping on some serouis toes and start a civil war?


Isnt that what started the first civil war? But the idea of States rights ; tho diluted after the CW. Was still largely intact.

	21-03-2002 01:29									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Victor Galis Doesn't matter if it's a federal police state or a local police state. It's still a police state.

No police state is going to emerge from a local level I dont think. The state's are bound bye constitutions aswell.

quote: And the WTC did not have the 2 tallest buildings in America.

Sorry meant in NY. Sears tower is tallest. and only Kwadlampor (sp?) is taller.

	21-03-2002 01:35									#34
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I was responding to df. My point was that the NG didn't listen to the prez, and he had to call out the Army to push them aside.

quote: Kwadlampor (sp?) is taller

The CN tower in Toronto is taller than that, at 550 m.

Kuala Lumpur, btw.

	21-03-2002 02:21									#35
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quote: So in the event of say. Bush decides to suspend the habius corpus and cancel elections, most of the constitution and sack 47 governers who are opposed to the move ; and he dispatch's the federal army for the task. How is he going to do this without stepping on some serouis toes and start a civil war?

His first move would be to nationalize the NG.

quote: I was responding to df. My point was that the NG didn't listen to the prez, and he had to call out the Army to push them aside.

Wrong. Ike federalized the Guard and ordered them away, then sent in the 82nd Airborne. Unfortunately, the NG followed Ike's orders, instead of resisting the invasion of Arkansas with force as I wish they had done.

	21-03-2002 02:34									#36
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That's because you're insane.

I thought I remembered shots of the Army physically pushing the NG out of the way. Could be wrong, though.

	21-03-2002 02:55									#37
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse That's because you're insane. I thought I remembered shots of the Army physically pushing the NG out of the way. Could be wrong, though.

Your right. I remember somthing along thhose lines on a civil rights documentary on PBS.

	21-03-2002 03:12									#38
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--"If you look at the history of the United States, during times of war civil liberities have been curtailed."

Yes. Which, I suspect, was half the reason the "War on Drugs" was delcared in the first place. That's been going on for quite some time now, and on top of that we've got our indefinite "War on Terrorism", not to mention the start of a "War on Fat" (no, I am not kidding).
They're using your rationale, they're just redefining everything as a war.

--"Do you have an examples of how this is done? I have never heard of it."

I don't recall the specifics off-hand, but in the Waco incident out-of-state National Guard troops were used without the Texas Governor's permission due to Reno's influence. This is only one of the major cockups of that operation, but it never seemed to make any real headlines.

--"The state's are bound bye constitutions aswell."

Much more flexible ones, however. Still, I doubt any police state happening at the state or local level, simply because the Federal government hates competition and has the firepower advantage.

Wraith
"Politics and crime - they're the same thing."
-- ("The Godfather")

	21-03-2002 07:06									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Zhu Yuanzhang I recoment reading Christian Parenti's Lockdown America, its damn good leftist propaganda

Zhu's recommending a Communist?!?

	21-03-2002 07:09									#40
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory Mobius did you happen to Notice the 2 tallest buildings in the United States were missing?

When did the Sears Tower disappear? And it is still the tallest building in the world. The Toronto Tower is a tower, and the building in Kuwala Lampur is considered taller by only one of the four measures in deciding the tallest building (appreatnely spires can be considered part of the building, but antenae aren't).

	21-03-2002 07:13									#41
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory Your right. I remember somthing along thhose lines on a civil rights documentary on PBS.

You both remember incorrectly. What you remember were Federal Marshalls escorting Medgar Evers (IIRC) into Ole Miss.

Federalization of the state militias is perfectly constitutional. The President is the Supreme Commander and Chief of the military, and the National Guard is military.

edit: er, James Meredith.

	21-03-2002 07:16									#42
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You both remember incorrectly. What you remember were Federal Marshalls escorting Medgar Evers (IIRC) into Ole Miss.

Medgar Evers never went to Ole Miss. He attended Alcorn State.

	21-03-2002 07:18									#43
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Well who was the guy they were escorting in past the guv'nah?

	21-03-2002 07:22									#44
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Well who was the guy they were escorting in past the guv'nah?

James Meredith.

	21-03-2002 07:23									#45
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That's who I meant. Later he tried to march across Mississippi, but some cracker shot him.

	21-03-2002 07:25									#46
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara That's who I meant. Later he tried to march across Mississippi, but some cracker shot him.

I think that your confusing him with Medgar Evers again.

	21-03-2002 07:28									#47
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Nah, Evers was head of the local NAACP and was murdered in his yard. Meredith was only winged, but it stopped him from completing his march. Dr. King took it up, and was joined by a lot of SNCC kids. That was the march where the Black Power movement was born, and King began to take a back seat to the younger generation.

	21-03-2002 07:33									#48
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Blah. I think I remember pretty good for it not being my country and all.

	21-03-2002 08:00									#49
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It really all depends on whether I've gotten a ticket recently. Right now, no, it's a free country.

Actually hieghtened security is still for the protection of Americans, not the oppression. If it ever crosses that line every veteran will grab his gun and much of the military would revolt. In the US democracy is too deeply rooted ever to be undone. That's not to say it won't be tested however.

	21-03-2002 08:07									#50
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I'm not talking about Meredith, I'm talking about the forced integration of Central High in Little Rock.

Oh, and the NG should be under the SOLE control of the Governors - if they don't want to commit their troops to a foreign war, too damn bad for the President.

	21-03-2002 08:35									#51
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Oh, and the NG should be under the SOLE control of the Governors - if they don't want to commit their troops to a foreign war, too damn bad for the President.

What foreign war are you talking about? The governors were violating the US Constitution. What would you have the President do? Look at them disapprovingly?

If it makes you feel any better, the army was called out as well when Ole Miss was integrated. From what I remember, the federal troops were needed as well.

	21-03-2002 09:33									#52
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quote: The governors were violating the US Constitution.

No they didn't - civil rights laws were based on the illegitimate 14th Amendment.

	21-03-2002 09:52									#53
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Legitimate or not, neither the states, nor the President, have the authority to declare a Constitutional Amendment illegitimate. The Supreme Court did not declare the amendment unconstitutional, so it's federal law.

Eisenhower had all the authority he needed to force integration.

	21-03-2002 09:54									#54
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quote: Legitimate or not, neither the states, nor the President, have the authority to declare a Constitutional Amendment illegitimate. The Supreme Court did not declare the amendment unconstitutional, so it's federal law. Eisenhower had all the authority he needed to force integration.

That doesn't change facts.

If Congress passed a law banning all firearms and did away with the 4th and 5th Amendment protections, and SCOTUS upheld it, I'd still not be obliged to follow the law, although assassinations would be in order.

	21-03-2002 09:55									#55
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd No they didn't - civil rights laws were based on the illegitimate 14th Amendment.

You could just as well say that they are based on the 5th and 9th ammendments.

	21-03-2002 09:56									#56
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quote: You could just as well say that they are based on the 5th and 9th ammendments.

No you couldn't, because you need the 14th to apply those amendments to the States.

	21-03-2002 10:08									#57
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quote: That doesn't change facts. If Congress passed a law banning all firearms and did away with the 4th and 5th Amendment protections, and SCOTUS upheld it, I'd still not be obliged to follow the law,

Why's that? SCOTUS legally interprets the Constitution, not you.

The 14th Amendment fixed a major defficiency in the Constitution, get over it.

	21-03-2002 10:12									#58
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quote: Why's that? SCOTUS legally interprets the Constitution, not you.

That's right, but if the federal government is blatantly violating the Constitution, the Founders understood that it is our duty to fight back - what do you think the 2nd is for?

	21-03-2002 10:15									#59
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd No you couldn't, because you need the 14th to apply those amendments to the States.

I'll go with the forced integration of Ole Miss as an example of why this isn't necessarialy so and because I know more about that situation.

Article 3 Sec. 6 of the MS Constitution asserts the States exclusive right to regulate its internal government and police and alter or abolish them as they see fit provided it isn't repugnant to the US Constitution.

Art. 3 Sec. 14 provides that no person shall be deprived of liberty without due process of law.

Not only was the MS Governor violating the precepts of the US Constitution which his government agrees holds sway over the law of his State even in absence of the 14th ammendment, his actions were also in violation of his own State's Constitution.

	21-03-2002 10:19									#60
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The 14th Amendment is a good thing. Ignoring the 2nd, 4th, and 5th Amendments are bad things. We should fight back against bad things, and fight for good things.

As for this legalistic nonsense about the poor widdle states having some of their authority taken away by the federal gov't and given back to mean oppressive people, I couldn't care less about what a bunch of rich mercantilists or feudal lords thought about my liberties.