19-03-2002 15:28									#1
	Is the U.S. turning into a police state? Tired of ads?

I'm beginning to think that it is (see Australia migrant thread- I'm too lazy to copy paste ).

Plus you watch these reality cop shows and you begin to wonder. And you see these cops harrass people for stuff like drugs. It seems they only push certain agendas. They don't seem to enforce all laws equally. The police force has become too political minded for my tastes.

I do see drastic changes as soon as 20 or 30 years. I believe that we will live in a country where you have id cards that have to be scanned for any major area you go. I don't want to live in a country like that. I'm even prepared to move to Canada or Australia if I have to . Yes very drastic measures indeed.

I don't see manned police checkpoints like in some sci-fi movie. This will all be tracked electronically. Every movement you do will be tracked. Certain activities such as hiking or travelling will require permits. I figure any movement whatsoever outside the city will require a permit. These measures will be put in place to track terrorists and other deadly criminals of course. And they will say this makes us safer.

	19-03-2002 16:35									#2
	Inflate your Upload Space

Depends on your definition. A police state is generally defined a something imposed, but what's happening in the US is that it's being willingly embraced by a population that really does believe
1) If you're innocent, you have no reason to worry, and
2) "You're either with us or against us."
The philosophical conundrum is: if citizens of a democracy willingly give away all their freedoms, is it still a democracy?

	19-03-2002 17:00									#3
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Banana republic is a retail store with nice clothes. My favorite as a matter of fact. http://www.bananarepublic.com
So, no, the US is not turning into a retail store

	19-03-2002 17:13									#4
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Same all over the Western world. We have Herr Blunkett and his vision of authoritarianism for the UK

You've got to watch it. Give the authorities an inch sometimes, and they'll take a mile. Kiss goodbye to your civil liberties, they are getting more and more restricted by the era. But I don't subscribe to this libertarian bollocks, they don't hold the answers. You just need to oppose each measure.

	19-03-2002 17:52									#5
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Turning into??

	19-03-2002 18:33									#6
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Selective law enforcemet? Certainly.
Every single State has antiquated and ridiculous laws on the books.
Clean up what's required to be enforced. That's the key.

	20-03-2002 06:11									#7
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You seem to imply that it is not already a police state.

	20-03-2002 06:37									#8
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quote: But I don't subscribe to this libertarian bollocks, they don't hold the answers.

Anarchists do.

	20-03-2002 08:27									#9
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No. I lived in a state with limited individual freedom, I know what police states can do. This is not a police state. In fact, it's the farthest thing from it. There's this pesky little thing called civil liberties that gets in the way of governmental control. Also, it's hard to control a population when they are armed themselves (A democrat who's also an NRA member, what a concept!). Yes, people can be arrested and be spied on, but only with a warrant that eventually must stand up in court. Illegal use of policing powers has made more guilty people go free than it has interfered with the innocent.

	20-03-2002 08:28									#10
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cg points at Cairo_East and laughs.

	20-03-2002 08:41									#11
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Oh yes there beating protesters in the street. Arresting people for random torture/confessions about there ideology and the constitution somehow no longer exists. Conspiracys about this and that and the shadow government.




Same old Chorus, Same lame accusations

Cairo? Where you from?

Eygpt? (wild guess)

	20-03-2002 08:50									#12
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory Same old Chorus, Same lame accusations Cairo? Where you from? Eygpt? (wild guess)

USA. But I lived in Colombia, Singapore, and Egypt.

	20-03-2002 10:02									#13
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People who live here tend to gripe about insignificant crap. They take for granted there freedoms, and the warm beds they sleep in.

Tho I imagine if they spent a week in Cuba or Iraq, they would remember why USA is the still the most free land on earth.

	20-03-2002 13:23									#14
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quote: they would remember why USA is the still the most free land on earth.

You cannot learn this from a comparison to unfree countries but other free countries. Try Switzerland, unless freedom means for you not to invariably step into a mountain or to cross the border every other step you do ...

quote: The philosophical conundrum is: if citizens of a democracy willingly give away all their freedoms, is it still a democracy?

I never thought of the Nazi Third Reich as a democracy - and what you described was exactly what happened. Hitler used mostly democratic means to remove democracy.
Probably a poll on "giving away all freedoms" would not have succeeded, but what we understand as democracy is to elect a few people who do the decisions for us. If they want to decide to remove all freedoms they are allowed to do so unless the constitution objects. That's the same in most western democracies. Only Switzerland has a major plebiscitary culture.

	20-03-2002 13:29									#15
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the US is getting less free

it is better than other places however

Jon Miller

	20-03-2002 15:09									#16
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I read an article that said more than 2,000 Americans have been arrested in the United States for suspected terrorist activity since 9/11 and these people have not been charged, they have not gone before any court, and they are being denied contact with their lawyers.

Anyone know if this is true?

I think the article was from The Guardian.

	20-03-2002 15:34									#17
	Oh yes it is! Remove this text

As someone who's been travelling across the US for the last couple of months I feel reasonably well qualified to answer this...

New York: I have never seen more police or national guard/army on the streets of a city EVER!!! This was a good 4 months AFTER 11-9 - it seemed like every block in the financial district and every building of any significance had at least half a dozen roly poly officers (why are all your police FAT!?) standing around chatting and eating donuts looking like they owned the place!

Grand Central was choked with National Guard!

On at least one occasion we saw groups of police marching down the sidewalk - one particularly intimidating guy was smoking a cigar and carrying his nightstick particularly menacingly!

Then you have roads in places like New Jersey and Key West where the police cars are literally queueing up to pull over drivers!

Apparently Mississippi has official curfews! Now THAT is definite and clear-cut police stateism!!!

At the Hoover dam you have to pass through a police checkpoint and don't even get me started on the airports!!!

San Francisco Airport goes straight in at #2 as my worst ever airport experience (it even gave Athens a run for it's money!!!)...

Amongst the complete chaos of gigantic and numerous queues, I had to take my shoes off not once but TWICE in two different security checks! The morons didn't even check my carry on bag properly!!!

The worst thing is that all this security is f***ed - it's screwing things up left right and centre and is haphazard at best with no real clue about how and what to search for! The best security is some of the Museums and the worst was definitely SFO! Some places (USS Arizona Memorial) you're not even allowed to be wearing cargo pants or have a bag with you to visit - guess what, there's no lockers for your stuff so if you don't know in advance, you're screwed!

The places they're not likely to bomb seem to have the best security - the security of the mostly likely targets I've seen is frankly not up to snuff...

Bottom line - if they want to bomb you, they will.

So much for not letting 11-9 change your lives - from what I've seen it's ruling your lives...

Now I don't mind cheap half occupied hotels and nearly deserted sights where I don't have to queue for ages - but it's killing your country!

Get out there, start travelling, start flying and start living again - move on!

	20-03-2002 16:27									#18
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory People who live here tend to gripe about insignificant crap. They take for granted there freedoms, and the warm beds they sleep in.

No my friend, it is you who is taking it for granted, talking like it is there and always will be. You let it trickle between your fingers and it will, and is.

Open your eyes. Just because it may suit your agenda doesn't mean it suits everyone. Also try looking from the outside. It is most enlightening too.

	20-03-2002 17:58									#19
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Mobius, are you realizing that you traveled over 3,000 miles, and yet you can only point to a few instances?

Personally, I have seen no more police than I ever did. I also have not seen any National Guard, and considering the two nuclear facilities on campus, they were here, and have since left.

You know, I remember when my sister traveled to Europe, she was shocked by the guards armed with automatic weapons that were around the airport and the hotel in Italy. I have yet to see a single person armed with an automatic on my occasional flights around the US.

BTW, I'm very lucky, still no speeding tickets, even after four years of driving. (A few instances of 20-25 over the limit had me worried tho... )

	20-03-2002 20:50									#20
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--"Is the U.S. turning into a police state?"

It's heading that way. Has been for some time. That whole "slow and silent erosion of liberties" thing.

--"The philosophical conundrum is: if citizens of a democracy willingly give away all their freedoms, is it still a democracy?"

Interesting question, but irrelevant in this case. The US is a constitutional republic, not a democracy. It was done this way for a reason, namely to avoid the question you posit above. The Constituion assumes several basic, pre-existing rights that cannot be voted away (not that the current government is paying any attention to this fact).

--"This is not a police state. In fact, it's the farthest thing from it."

I wouldn't say the farthest thing from it, but yes, it's not there yet. The civil liberties are still an issue only because (almost) every encroachment is being fought tooth and nail by someone or someones. This is, however, currently a rear-guard action, and the encroachment is continuing. Bills and laws are getting to the point where it's obvious that civil liberties are, at least sometimes, no longer considered in their formation.
And surely you've seen the number of gun-control threads on this forum. The whole arming ourselves bit has been under attack for a long, long time.

--"Yes, people can be arrested and be spied on, but only with a warrant that eventually must stand up in court."

This doesn't mean much any more, even before the PATRIOT act. Warrants for drug-raids are easily obtainable by "anonymous tip". WoD rules in a lot of places allow for property seizures without convictions (and, in fact, without even charges). Now, with the PATRIOT junk, someone just has to call you a terrorist.

--"Anyone know if this is true?"

I've heard the same thing. May look for references later.
Proving things like this is difficult, though.

--"Grand Central was choked with National Guard!"

This kind of thing is really getting on my nerves. The NG should not be in such heavy use in the US right now. This is one of the biggest steps towards an actual police state, getting the populace conditioned to expect (and accept) para-military forces (with no police jurisdiction, to my knowledge, and certainly no police training) all over.

Wraith
"Governments change...the lies stay the same."
-- James Bond

	20-03-2002 21:07									#21
	Tired of ads?

quote: Oh yes there beating protesters in the street. Arresting people for random torture/confessions about there ideology and the constitution somehow no longer exists. Conspiracys about this and that and the shadow government.

Um they are beating protestors on the street and have been for years, people with an Islamic ideology have been having a fairly tough time of it lately, and we do have a shadow government hiding in a bunker in case DC gets nuked (although it apparently doesn't do much).

I recoment reading Christian Parenti's Lockdown America, its damn good leftist propaganda

	20-03-2002 21:08									#22
	Re: Oh yes it is! Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS Apparently Mississippi has official curfews! Now THAT is definite and clear-cut police stateism!!!

MOBIUS, that's not true. Mississippi, or at least the areas of the state I've lived in, has no such curfews and I've never heard of any part of the state having them.

	21-03-2002 00:07									#23
	Remove this text

There are no curfew in Mississippi. I had the pleasure of living there. If you can call it that

But there are restrictions on when you can sell alcohol . They actually have last calls at their bars unlike my fair city where bars stay open 24 hours.

	21-03-2002 00:31									#24
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"At the Hoover dam you have to pass through a police checkpoint and don't even get me started on the airports!!!"

-Thanks for the tip. I might avoid the place if I ever go through with my plan to drive from SF to Atlanta via Chicago. I've seen that Dam enough times anyways.

"San Francisco Airport goes straight in at #2 as my worst ever airport experience (it even gave Athens a run for it's money!!!)..."

-Oh yes... "Sir this is an express line for people with only one carryon" (I look around... no one standing within 20 ft. No one trying to get in through this line... oookkkay) And I just love how you have to go down to baggage claim and come back up now if you want to exit at the departures level I also love the heavily armed guys in military uniform... man, it reminded me of Cairo, when I was there during the Arab leaders conference while the arab leaders were leaving and guards were everywhere.

The Congressional office buildings do hardcore security well. I had to even remove my belt there to reduce the amount of metal on my body enough to get through the metal detector.

"Mobius, are you realizing that you traveled over 3,000 miles, and yet you can only point to a few instances?"

-Last summer I travelled 2600 and I can't point to one.

"I have yet to see a single person armed with an automatic on my occasional flights around the US."

-Fly through SFO.

I seem to have very few civil liberties... I guess I'm just lucky no one really hates me.

	21-03-2002 00:37									#25
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If you look at the history of the United States, during times of war civil liberities have been curtailed. Both World Wars is a good example of this hear in the United States. I live in California and have not notice anything really different after 9/11, but it seems as if I have seen more police cars going around then before 9/11.

The United States if far form a police state. Who knows maybe one day it will become a police state. But I dont think it is turning into one now.

MOBIUS in many cities in the United States there are curfiews for minors, but not for adults. I have near heard of any curfiews anywere in the United States. The only time they do have curfiews for everyone is when the is a major roit going on or something like that.

	21-03-2002 00:48									#26
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Florida certainly seemed like a police state, by Dutch standards.

Then again, so did Italy.

	21-03-2002 01:03									#27
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National Gaurd is controlled bye States. I fail to see how deploying national gaurd is encouraging federal police states. If anything.The national gaurd would fight any police state. The Constitution makes that clear.

Mobius did you happen to Notice the 2 tallest buildings in the United States were missing?

	21-03-2002 01:08									#28
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[quote]National Gaurd is controlled bye States. I fail to see how deploying national gaurd is encouraging federal police states. If anything.The national gaurd would fight any police state. The Constitution makes that clear.[/quote




Ummmm.....ok......

No, seriously, the NG can be easily federalized over the wishes of the States...just look at incidents involving civil rights. I think that forced federalization of NG units is a horrible flaw, of course, but there it is.

	21-03-2002 01:11									#29
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Ummmm.....ok......

No, seriously, the NG can be easily federalized over the wishes of the States...just look at incidents involving civil rights. I think that forced federalization of NG units is a horrible flaw, of course, but there it is. "


Do you have an examples of how this is done? I have never heard of it. The Governers control the national gaurd. And the Gaurd has allegiance to the state orders.

	21-03-2002 01:16									#30
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In 195? Eisenhower had to call out the Army to combat (not literally) one of the Southern states' NGs on the enforcement of Brown v. Board of Ed.