19-03-2002 19:07									#1
	The issue of wonders Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Some of the masses are grumbling about the need for wonders in this game. To build them, we really ought to be rolling out the caravans on our main island! Forget marketplaces, breed camels! Once we decide which wonder we want, voila! we build it the next turn.

It wouldn't hurt to settle another city east of Apolyton to aid in this production. It would necessarily be small, but could be a dedicated camel ranch. You simply can't have too many caravans in this game! Besides, we need more trade routes.

Let the president and ministers hear your wishes!


(le marquis investing more gold in camel futures)

	19-03-2002 22:44									#2
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Yes, let's breed camels!

	19-03-2002 23:43									#3
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Yeah, put all money on camels, we need to be prepared for Global Warming

	20-03-2002 02:49									#4
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let us build many wonders with our mighty camels.

	20-03-2002 03:51									#5
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Camels -- Yes!
Wonders -- Yes!

(signed)
The Grumbling Masses

	20-03-2002 04:52									#6
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Horah! WonderCamels!

I say yes.

	20-03-2002 07:25									#7
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I am in favor of organizing a few cities to build caravans to help make Wonders, but we can suffer if we dedicate too many resources to that. It isn't just an either/or question. There are also costs in building Wonders.

	20-03-2002 11:09									#8
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Can we get a list of available buildings to add to "Queues" for each city where building Caravans is a feasible idea? I think Caravans may be the order of the day where we have our exploration/settler factories elsewhere and our core cities have built most of the available improvements.

It is time for a Wonder or two, and we gotta start early!

	20-03-2002 16:56									#9
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We just should start builing a Wonder on our Main island apolytonia and switch its production when we are able to build Mikes,then use all the camels we had storred for this moment to have an instant Wonder....WE NEED HAPPINESS


So stop fighting over how or what might...
start builing a wonder in one of the cities of Apolytonia and have eg 2 cities building caravans wich we stockpille until the discovery of Monotheism and then build Michelangelo's Chapel.


So get on with it!!!!

Shade

	20-03-2002 21:54									#10
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I know wonders are important, but us citizens come first...we pay your enormous government salaries!! Maybe we should just give you elected individuals a paycut!
I say we first placate the rest of our population, then gets those camels to multiply and use them for both trade and wonder production...That way, we can get more money as well...for entertainment and luxury!

	21-03-2002 01:15									#11
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Nay I say!

Let us keep our population to the size each city is content at and build Wonders there. Wouldn't Mike or the Oracle make ppl happy enough - just on a nationwide scale - and bring us great accolades as well?

	21-03-2002 01:20									#12
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This definitely a matter at hand, and we should decide whether to build or not a wonder, and if we do want to build one, on what city should it be built.

	21-03-2002 15:45									#13
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quote: Originally posted by kassiopeia and if we do want to build one, on what city should it be built.

=>Logic=the one with the highest production

Shade

	21-03-2002 21:44									#14
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Not necessarily, Shade. If we incrementally rushbuild caravans, then it won't matter where it is, as long as the camels can reach it. Any city on Apolytonia would do, as long as the others are building caravans to bump up production. I advocate building caravans and then building the wonder in one turn.

	22-03-2002 02:46									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq Not necessarily, Shade. If we incrementally rushbuild caravans, then it won't matter where it is, as long as the camels can reach it. Any city on Apolytonia would do, as long as the others are building caravans to bump up production. I advocate building caravans and then building the wonder in one turn.

that's also a possibility but I had the impression our cashflow wasn't that big so we could easily rushbuy...
We'll see...

Shade

	22-03-2002 03:05									#16
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While I was president, the coffers stayed empty because of rushbuying. Per turn income was enough to selectively spend on rushing key builds.

I've no idea what the current $ status is, tho. (Verdomme, ik heb nog geen kopie van 't spelletje... Wij hoeven een nieuwe leider, volgens mij )

	22-03-2002 03:21									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq (Verdomme, ik heb nog geen kopie van 't spelletje... Wij hoeven een nieuwe leider, volgens mij )

heb het geforward...(als ge het nie in je mailbox vindt laat dan es weten...dan is er onderweg iets opgefoeterd.)

Shade

	22-03-2002 04:15									#18
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in the main island, without any doubt

	22-03-2002 06:47									#19
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First, I recommend *not* dedicating any particular city to building a Wonder. My experience is that conditions change and you often find a city building a Wonder locked into it when it needs something else suddenly (a temple, an aquaduct, etc). It is *very* painful to waste 50% of shields to change a Wonder into a temple if the city comes into revolt!

Instead, assign 2 or 3 cities at a time to build caravans (and all the mainland cities can take turns) so that no city finds itself locked into a penalty situation for changing production when problems arise.

I suggest that the mainland cities build a caravan every few production cycles and that the caravans be stored in a central location for easy movement to the selected city for the eventual Wonder (wherever is most appropriate).

There is another value to stashing caravans. Some of them will have more valuable trading goods than others. Those that are best used for actual trade routes (overseas, almost certainly) can be rehomed to the best trading city on the mainland (by lack of trade routes and most trading arrows) and taken out of the Wonder stash (not something to do too often, but sometimes the best decision for a particular caravan).

	22-03-2002 22:36									#20
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I vote NAY to rehoming caravans. However, stashing them for later use is a good plan. Build wonders with all the food and hide caravans that are stacked up, saving the other commodities in case they can be traded overseas.

	23-03-2002 00:49									#21
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do we start a thread to decide what to do?

	23-03-2002 05:39									#22
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I don't rehome caravans in my own games, so I don't have any problems with us not doing it in this game. But some people do, and defend the practice, so I considered it as one possible advantage of stashed caravans.

	23-03-2002 06:06									#23
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could somebody explain me the benefits of rehoming the caravans?

i´ve never done that

	23-03-2002 06:43									#24
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Rehoming food caravans supposedly means that you can send food from a city to itself! I don't know the exact benefits (having never used food caravans before), but shade might know.

He told me, y'see.

	23-03-2002 08:40									#25
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Actually, the food thing is a minor concern. The idea of rehoming an actual trade good is that the trade benefits are very dependent of the "arrow" (trade) production of a city. If you have (say) silk from a small city of 10 trade arrows, it is not as valuable as the same silk from a city of 20 trade arrows.

So, if you "support from this city" a caravan from a lesser trade city to a larger one, the ultimate trade benefit is greater. That is subject to whether the larger trade city is already maxed out in terms of trade routes, of course. You can only have 3.

	23-03-2002 08:53									#26
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Rehoming food caravans supposedly means that you can send food from a city to itself! I don't know the exact benefits (having never used food caravans before), but shade might know.

I understand the logical confusion of sending food to the city that grew it. But there is a way to understand it. And I understand your concern. For the longest time, I thought a food caravan was taking food away from one city and moving it to another.

Caravan production is separate from the actual food available for a specific cities use. Think of the food trade as coming from just outside the city, and it will make more sense.

In practical terms, food caravans can have great value to cities that have difficulty providing their own food (like in mountain cities built for defensive value). I'll admit I don't use them myself, but I certainly see the advantages to be gained.

Think of it as just one more way that a city could provide itself with additional food.

	23-03-2002 16:03									#27
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Rehoming food caravans supposedly means that you can send food from a city to itself! I don't know the exact benefits (having never used food caravans before), but shade might know. He told me, y'see.

I know what the theory is...and I even tried it once for real just to see if it worked but my game gave me a nice popup saying it couldn't rehome a foodcaravan.(and about the other caravans rehoming just takes time...so no thx)

So what are we still waiting for...BUILD THE DAMN WONDEEEERRRRR!!!!!!

(geez we really start to look like the politicians here in Belgium )

Shade

	23-03-2002 19:12									#28
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Yeah, all we need now is for cavebear to start OPENLy slagging me off and there's a real Parliament right there.

But I couldn't care less right now.

	24-03-2002 19:46									#29
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No slagging was intended.

	25-03-2002 00:42									#30
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Yes, I agree that we need a wonder. I don't care which one(s), just build a wonder already!