20-03-2002 14:25									#1
	I Think It's Time to Say Goodbye Enter the AD-FREE zone

I hereby surrender.

In what will be my last game, I found myself on an island with the Egyptians and pounded them pretty severely...after hours and hours of combat I finally eliminated them and sent dozens of galleys to a watery grave attempting to reach new lands.

Eventually I succeeded and encountered a civ or two and traded for their contacts and then contact with everyone else. And then, in the same turn I bought and traded for....13 techs! Seriously!

Now I'v got zero for resources and figure maybe I'll get ships and move Cavalry to distant lands. With luck I might actually be able to conquer a few civs before the game ends but then a thought hits me, "Why bother?"

My previous game was nearly ruined by being unable to restore a saved game until the patch. Civ III...first game I EVER had unplayable from the box. I had a 16 player battle and found myself with 7 saltpeter and built factories aplenty by tech selling and have 100+ tanks before the Russians did.

I thank God the new patch allowed me to restore it and then the mighty Russian empire self-destructs under Communism. Gee, time for the next patch?

Three months after I spent $50 and the game STILL isn't finished? But this isn't the game killer for me....it's five factors.

First, it's now just a Builder game, Conquers are out of luck. Culture, Diplomacy, Spaceship victories are Builder-oriented. I finished two Conquer victories which didn't even have a cool victory animation at the end.

Second, it's a low media game. Remember how every new science or structure prompted a cool voice over in SMAC? The Darwin's Voyage movie in Civ II was a work of art! Now building a Wonder have all the visual impact of a text adventure game.

Third, it's attack only after Swordsmen, Knights, Cavalry, Tanks, and Modern Armor. Right after these it's just defense and waiting....Conquerers are bored. I seriously didn't even care about finishing my last game since I didn't think spending 50+ hours for a non-thrilling ending was a good use of my time. The tech tree is useless. Diplomacy is embarrassing. Trade is super exploitable (I've got 1000/gold/turn)

Fourth, the game is very largely luck based. In my second to last game I won fairly easily because
a) the Chinese started on a coast and I started closer inland and I kept them there.
b) The Aztecs moved East instead of west
c) After eliminating the Chinese and Aztecs I wound up with half the Saltpeter on the planet! (But nothing could convince Egypt to trade Iron to me, except three resources, two techs, and 2000 gold...seems fair right?)
d) My neighbor was twice my size! And disintegrated overnight (Karl Marx was an idiot).

Fifth, and this is the killer, Infogrames didn't do their job. Look at the bug lists, the dozens of features people expected (SMAC have plenty of them!), and the absolutely manditory patches needed. They released a game they knew was incomplete to meet Christmas. Sid's name means nothing...he didn't have anything to do with the game...so to put his name on it is a marketing tool/lie (same thing)?

As for the reviews...last poll here I checked 60 loved it, 40 felt screwed, 25 liked it but admitted it have problems. Frankly how this translated to 99% and five star reviews everywhere just astounds me. 85 to 40? Sounds more like 65% to me...guess when you have to pay for a copy you expect more.

So this sad experiance has taught me to never trust Infogrames, ignore anything with Sid's name on it, and never, ever buy a game mag (or even read one) again (I'll just download demos).

I can't "Yin" and slap the game around...after all this time I've discovered I just don't care anymore. You'll find my copy on Ebay this week. Hopefully patch 1.199934123 (coming in 2008) solves everything...I know I won't care. But I would like to say one final thing.

I think it's immoral to knowingly sell something that's incomplete without warning people (and good luck playing it on less than a elite system).

I think it's immoral to put your name on a product and when people complain say you had nothing to do with it. If that's how Sid wants to play it then play leave his name off the next one.

The Critics are entitled to their opinions but I have no respect for any of them now since I doubt any of them finished a game. Civ 3 buys ad space...I guess offending an advertiser would be bad for business.

And for those alt-civvers and modgods I wish you luck. Be sure to code lots of bugs in your efforts so it feels like the real thing.

Thanks to everyone, I've very much enjoyed this site but now it's time to delete it off my Favorites list and find a better use for my time.

	20-03-2002 14:52									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Sorry to see you go Roy.

The fact that we are playing a beta was fairly obvious from very early on.

Check in again in 6 months or a year. You might like what you find.

Prolly pretty cheap on EBay by then.

Salve

	20-03-2002 15:51									#3
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

At least civ III has taught me not to whine at developers to hurry up and release a game.
Just take your time, guys 'n galls. Think the mechanics through, program them well and take your time to test and improve. A good game 12 months late is better than a a piece of crap now.
It also allows for more fun things. I liked the civ2 wonder movies and the advisors. Their advice was useless and they didn't appear much, their were fun: 'I think I'll screw up my entertainment and see what Elvis says this time'.

Robert

	20-03-2002 18:09									#4
	Remove this text

I've heard a lot of people say that they watched the wonder movies once, then turned them off. Well, I admit that I got bored with the ones in Civ II, but when I play SMAC, I watch the wonder movies almost every game... they are that damn good!

And I think somewhere along the way to making the game more competitive, they forgot about the fun factor. Sure, every now and then I like to crank up the difficulty and fight off all comers, but more often than that, I just want a liesurely game of world domination that's fun to play.

So, to stay on topic, I'll wait for Civ IV, or more likely, keep playing SMAC and Civ II.

	20-03-2002 18:19									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Apparently, you played for many hours before abandoning the game. For $50, that is about all you should expect. You got your money's worth.

I played SimCity for several hours, then quit. I played the Sims exactly once, before quitting for good. Some people like the Sims. It's not a "rip-off." It's just not my cup of tea. It's not their fault, and I didn't feel a need to go on the Sim forum to vent my "indignation" and "rage." It's just a game!

I enjoy Civ3 immensely, and found it playable right out of the box.

	20-03-2002 18:25									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I was going to type in a response, but it's not worth it.

Goodbye

	20-03-2002 19:35									#7
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Zachriel It's just a game!

I find the phrase "It's just a game" annoying. It's as bad as saying "It's just business" after you kicked someone's shop into the ground.
Obviously, to the person you're responding to the game was more important than to you. Saying "It's just a game" belittles that person and his/her feelings. Not nice.

Robert

edit: came across more preachy than I meant to. Sorry.

	20-03-2002 20:09									#8
	Remove this text

NA NA NA NA, NA NA NA NA, HEY HEY HEY, Goodbye
NA NA NA NA, NA NA NA NA, HEY HEY HEY, Goodbye
NA NA NA NA, NA NA NA NA, HEY HEY HEY, Goodbye


Cya Roy, have fun with whatever you do but try and check back in a few months, you never know!

Spec.

	20-03-2002 20:57									#9
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Zachriel Apparently, you played for many hours before abandoning the game. For $50, that is about all you should expect. You got your money's worth.

How do you figure?

There is no equation x minutes of play per dollar. Books, movies, and music are mostly irrelevant because they're different animals.

The only value of a specific computer game is in relation to what is being offered by other computer games. Since I must have played 30 or more better games in my life (at least) - at this point I would have to say Civ3 is a bad value or something like it.

Look, good value = playing. Bad value = hanging around forums like ghosts months after release hoping the company will finally kick down a finished deep product.

	20-03-2002 21:19									#10
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Zachriel I played SimCity for several hours, then quit. I played the Sims exactly once, before quitting for good. Some people like the Sims. It's not a "rip-off." It's just not my cup of tea. It's not their fault, and I didn't feel a need to go on the Sim forum to vent my "indignation" and "rage." It's just a game! I enjoy Civ3 immensely, and found it playable right out of the box.

I played Sims and Sim City and hated it too but I really enjoy CIV III. Have many bugs? Really HAVE... but I wish it will be fixed so keep on...

	20-03-2002 21:41									#11
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Back to Roy Smith's original post, "I think it's immoral to knowingly sell something that's incomplete without warning people. . . " and "I think it's immoral to put your name on a product and when people complain say you had nothing to do with it."

This is not a moral issue. If you don't like the game anymore, don't play it. You don't have to denigrate the gamemakers, who have made many others happy, just because you don't like it. After all, it is just a game.

Good luck, Roy Smith. Maybe you'll return one day.

Last edited by Zachriel on 20-03-2002 at 21:46

	20-03-2002 21:49									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by godinex played Sims and Sim City and hated it too but I really enjoy CIV III. Have many bugs? Really HAVE... but I wish it will be fixed so keep on...

Bugs? Quirks? Design decisions?

There are many things I would change, fix, redesign. But we are dealing with a state-of-the-art and very complex project. So there is going to be growing pains. The game engine is very resilient and will, no doubt, evolve over the next few months or years.

	20-03-2002 23:46									#13
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I like Civ 3. Maybe its because I don't understand many of the problems that people complain about, or I don't care about their issues. I've never experienced a bug. I've always been able to load a saved game. My system is over 2 years old, but runs the game without a problem.

I think that the reason that most people are angry is because its not Civ2. Civ 3 is much more difficult to beat. You can no longer build a horde of howitzers and conquer all of your enemies, and you can't expect that a garrison of 1 howitzer can keep a size 24 city at bay. Most people have been using the same strategies that they tried in Civ 2. When those strategies fail, then they get mad. Other people simply exploit the fact that the game is a computer win easily by exploiting loopholes that weren't intended to be their. That's not playing the game, that's tricking the computer.

Personally, I shut off the Civ 2 wonder movies after seeing them twice, and I rarely consulted the advisors. The diplomacy is far superior to Civ 2. I don't know what you are doing to get 1000 per turn from the computer, but either you are cheating through a loophole or you are an effective diplomat. If you are an effective diplomat, then it means that the diplomacy isn't bad, the game isn't broken, and you should trying playing on a harder difficulty level.

Civ 3 has a lot of innovative ideas, such as culture, nationality, and city flipping that make the game more rewarding than civ 2.
These ideas take some getting used to, but once you understand them they add much to the game. I didn't like Civ 3 at first, but it has grown on me, and now I don't think I'll be playing anymore Civ 2. There are some minor problems, but Firaxis seems to be addressing them. I am personally going to wait and see what happens, and add some constructive criticism where I see fit.

I couldn't care less that you are selling uyour game. It doesn't affect me in the least. Why waste your time posting that kind of thing? People like you and Jimmytirck are simply annoyances. No one cares what you do with your game. I'm still going to play Civ 3. Are you still going to waste your time telling me that you sold your copy all the while posting on a Civ 3 site? Add constructive criticism where you think there needs to be changes. If you think that the game is fundamentally flawed, then stopo giong to Civ 3 sites. I for one am sick of reading your whining, especially from Jimmytrick.

	20-03-2002 23:57									#14
	Got spare money?

If you are sick of reading our posts why don't you turn off your computer. No one is forcing you to browse this forum. If you don't like it you can turn off your computer and take it back to the place you bought it.

Get a life already.

	21-03-2002 00:03									#15
	Increase Your PM Length

How can you get upset at what you read here? Its just a forum. I don't know what you paid for Apolyton, but I feel like I got my moneys worth. I can't see why people complain about what they read here. Can't you just go away.

This is supposed to be a place where people can come and post in peace. Why do you want to muck things up by being so....critical.

You might want to look for Vel's thread on civility.

	21-03-2002 00:07									#16
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Hear hear, nationalist!!

I love playing Civ3, even if there are flaws. I love interacting with other interested players, and further developing my playing style based on their lessons / input. I love that Firaxis pays attention.

Is the game perfect? Not even close. But I continue to find ways to explore it, to find new and interesting strategies to enjoy. It's an evolution.

I wish that JT especially would focus on the constructive, as when he does it's usually very valuable.

R

	21-03-2002 00:10									#17
	Put an end to popups!

Although, JT is right, there is no need to be insulting.

R

	21-03-2002 00:37									#18
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick If you are sick of reading our posts why don't you turn off your computer. No one is forcing you to browse this forum. If you don't like it you can turn off your computer and take it back to the place you bought it. Get a life already.

Jimmy, the more I read your posts the more I'm convinced that you're an idiot. True, no one is forcing me to read this foum. I read it to find out information about the game, to add some constructive criticism from time to time, and to discuss ideas about how to improve the game. However, in almost every thread there are comments from you or others like you interjecting things like "I hate everything about this game, it sucks, if you like it then you are a moron, blah, blah, blah" Then you add some melodramatic piece about how you were "decieved by Firaxis and that you're going to sell your game and that you have been scarred for life, whine, whine, whine" You sound like a 13 year old girl throwing a temper tantrum. If you think that the game is fundamentally flawed, stop playing it and stop posting it everywhere. You rarely add anything of worth to the forum, no constuctive criticism, no ideas for improvements short of "get rid of everything and make a new game", basically nothing but the same old "I hate this game and am going to sell it back" spiel that no one cares about. I have tried to ignore you, but you have finally ended up irritating me. You force people to read your post by adding your opinions where they are totally off topic. Many posts I find here are valuable and entertaining. I will continue to read and post here regarldess of how many people like you post here. I do this because I enjoy Civ 3, and this is a Civ 3 site. You don't enjoy Civ 3, so why come here to ***** and whine about it to people who give it a chance? As you would say: "No one is forcing you to browse this forum." So go, sell your game, and stop annoying those of us who want to have a meaningful discussion about the game.

By the way, didn't you start a thread here a couple of days ago that said it was your last post? Why didn't you stick to that decision? Is it because you wanted to play the part of the drama queen yet again. I say leave, and good riddance.

	21-03-2002 00:50									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Your personal attack on me is filled with inaccuracies.

You accuse me of posting off topic. I wasn't even on this thread till you insulted me by name. Seems that you went out of your way to trash me personally.

I don't mind though.

	21-03-2002 01:12									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick Your personal attack on me is filled with inaccuracies. You accuse me of posting off topic. I wasn't even on this thread till you insulted me by name. Seems that you went out of your way to trash me personally. I don't mind though.

No, but this thread reminded me too much of you to not mention your name. I figured that it was only a matter of time before you added you two cents to this thread. However, my statements go to all of those who say plainly "I hate this game, and the only way to fix it is to make a new game. I'm getting rid of it, and I want to make sure that I say that I am a few dozen times." My question is: who cares? If you like the game, good. If you don't like it, well then tha's alright too. Its an opinion. Most people realize this and post questions about this game, or ask people what they think about certain game play ideas, or suggest small changes in gameplay to make this game better. Sorry, but Firaxis
is not going to release an entirely new game. Civ 3 is fundamentally good, but it needs some changes. That is why Firaxis releases patches. They take our constructive, well thought out and argued criticisms and use them to help balance the game a little better. If you simply say "I hate everything about this game" or suggest that 90% of the game needs redone, then stop playing the game and stop posting. Let others who at least see some kind of worth in Civ 3 discuss things without having to deal with people like yourself who think that anyone who writes anything good about the game is a stupid Fan Boy and a Firaxis lackey.

	21-03-2002 01:43									#21
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Without involving myself too deeply... nationalist, you are certainly not forced to read jimmytrick's posts. May I suggest the ignore function? You aren't helpless.

	21-03-2002 02:10									#22
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 Without involving myself too deeply... nationalist, you are certainly not forced to read jimmytrick's posts. May I suggest the ignore function? You aren't helpless.

I know I'm not, and I am going to hit the ignore function. I just wanted to address something that many other people seemed to be annoyed with as well before I did. This is the first time that I have every attacked someone personally here, and I don't enjoy doing it. I just geniunely dislike the incessant whining going on on this forum. Take a look at JT's post where he suggests that we split up into official camps and fight it out. I just think that that kind of thing has no place here. This has been annoying me and others for awhile and I just felt like something needed to be said. Now, I'm going to go back to discussing the game.

	21-03-2002 02:22									#23
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

"I think that the reason that most people are angry is because its not Civ2. Civ 3 is much more difficult to beat. You can no longer build a horde of howitzers and conquer all of your enemies, and you can't expect that a garrison of 1 howitzer can keep a size 24 city at bay. Most people have been using the same strategies that they tried in Civ 2. When those strategies fail, then they get mad."

False. Inaccurate. Annoying to those who dont think Firaxians are gods, and dare to disagree with them. IIRC the original poster was upset partly because the AI self destructed . This doesnt sound like "WAHHHH! Mommy, this game is too hard!" Comments like "learn to play civ3, its harder than civ2" are like attacks on all non-fanboys. People can like/dislike, agree/disagree for many reasons and VERY FEW would dislike civ3 because of too much difficulty (if anything they say its too easy w/o rediculous AI cheats). He has valid complaints about the game being too luck-based and builder based victories being too easy compared to conquering/domionation. I turned them off, they were too easy and no fun. There is too much luck IMO, when the # generator is on my side for the next 20 turns it makes my victories feel worthless and when its against me for the other 20 turns it is just plain frustrating.

"Most people have been using the same strategies that they tried in Civ 2. When those strategies fail, then they get mad."

Do you know how to read minds? Do you know that "most" people who think civ3 is boring/a bad value or whatever are sore losers? Is there any validity whatsoever to that claim? I know someone who is good at civ3, but says it is sometimes a bit boring (which is somewhat true, unfortunately).

	21-03-2002 03:04									#24
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: "I think that the reason that most people are angry is because its not Civ2. Civ 3 is much more difficult to beat. You can no longer build a horde of howitzers and conquer all of your enemies, and you can't expect that a garrison of 1 howitzer can keep a size 24 city at bay. Most people have been using the same strategies that they tried in Civ 2. When those strategies fail, then they get mad."

I see this a totally accurate analysis of many of the complainers who post here.

quote: There is too much luck IMO, when the # generator is on my side for the next 20 turns it makes my victories feel worthless and when its against me for the other 20 turns it is just plain frustrating.

With out a number generator how else will it be decided? I'd really like to know.

	21-03-2002 04:35									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I am glad that people are getting the opportunity to vent their feelings without moderator intrusion.

	21-03-2002 04:47									#26
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: With out a number generator how else will it be decided? I'd really like to know.

The point isn't that random number generation is being used, rather that it is so blantantly obvious that we are playing a game of Risk. A good game should mask the underlying rules from the average player. I too have been frustrated by the randomness of this game. It seems that to make the AI more challenging the developers at Firaxis thought it was a good idea to make the code less complex. Sounds like laziness to me. They should of built on the existing combat system instead of totally revamping/breaking it.

	21-03-2002 04:49									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Hey jt... why does everyone pick on you? I always read what you say and while I don't agree with you all the time, i don't think you really whine all that much.

Besides, whining about whining nationalist?

	21-03-2002 04:51									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: I am glad that people are getting the opportunity to vent their feelings without moderator intrusion.

That's only because the moderator has been away from his computer today because he had other things to do...

Enough with the personal insults. The next person that make a personal insult is gone.

It's ok to discuss your feelings about the game, like or dislike. But when you make personal attacks against other members of this site because you just happen to disagree with them... that is not OK...

So chill people!

	21-03-2002 05:02									#29
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by simwiz2 Inaccurate. Annoying to those who dont think Firaxians are gods, and dare to disagree with them. IIRC the original poster was upset partly because the AI self destructed . This doesnt sound like "WAHHHH! Mommy, this game is too hard!" Comments like "learn to play civ3, its harder than civ2" are like attacks on all non-fanboys.

Thank you for helping me prove a point. Civ 3 isn't horrible, therefore I am a Firaxis worshipping "fan boy", therefore a lesser being than you tragically hip "non-fanboys."

quote: VERY FEW would dislike civ3 because of too much difficulty

On the contrary, many of the posts on this site have something to do with the fact the the AI can be very difficult to defeat on higher levels. Read some posts.

quote: Do you know how to read minds? Do you know that "most" people who think civ3 is boring/a bad value or whatever are sore losers?Is there any validity whatsoever to that claim?

No, but I can read what people post. Many complaints stem from differences between Civ 2 and Civ 3, and many are about things that make Civ 3 harder. For example, people hate the culture flip. I like it, because it has made me change my strategies. There are many more examples, just read some recent posts.

I don't think that Firaxis is infallable (even though it amuses me that you made fun of me in exactly the way that I said people would. Did you even read my post?) I think that there can be some changes to make the game better. I don't like the corruption model, I think that there should be firepower points.
I don't like the fact that he AI will settle anywhere, and the AI tech trading needs to be changed. I think that the AI needs to learn how to use Communism. Firaxis has listened to us before when they made patches, and if we make valid arguments then they will probably listen to us again. I don't feel ripped off when they give us free updates online. But if you had read my post, you will see that what annoys me is the people who post that they are selling their game or repeatedly posting how much you hate the game. I for one don't care if you are selling your game. You shouldn't care that I enjoy the game. I'm keeping my copy of Civ 3, because I think that it is better than Civ 2. It has grown on me, even though at first I didn't like it. Then I relized that it wasn't supposed to be Civ 2 and re-adjusted my thinking. Go ahead and call me a fanboy. I'll just refer to you people as the whining annoyances. Come back when you have a suggestion for Civ 3 or a comment other than "It sucks" or "I hate Firaxis"

	21-03-2002 05:28									#30
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by number6 The point isn't that random number generation is being used, rather that it is so blantantly obvious that we are playing a game of Risk. A good game should mask the underlying rules from the average player. I too have been frustrated by the randomness of this game. It seems that to make the AI more challenging the developers at Firaxis thought it was a good idea to make the code less complex. Sounds like laziness to me. They should of built on the existing combat system instead of totally revamping/breaking it.

Forgive me then if I don't understand the problem. If you mean the combat system, I think it was supposed to be made simpler as in Civ1. The whole game is more modeled on Civ 1 than on Civ 2. This was an intentional game design choice, not due to "laziness" or just to make the AI more challenging. Whether it was the right or wrong choice depends on your personal preference. I like it, you may not. Neither side is wrong, neither is right.