21-03-2002 00:50									#1
	Evil, evil Knights and Muskateers Full PM-box? Change here!

Okay folks, I know this has been hashed and rehashed a zillion times. But I am running into something here that I just dont understand.

What exactly are the requirements for this phenomenon to occur?
I have tried reducing the hp, fp, movement allowance etc for the units in these slots and still the phenomenon occurs.

For instance:

Muskateer slot has a ship in it. Ship is 1hp, 1fp, 0 att, and 2 def.
Discovering this unit obsoletes only some other units.

These units are all infantry. All of the infantry have higher hp, fp, att and def values than those of this ship. Some of the infantry get obsoleted, whilst other remain in-game, available to build.

For instance:
7 att, 5 def, 2 hp, 2 fp, 3 move--> not obsoleted.
6 att, 5 def, 2 hp, 1 fp, 2 move--> not obsoleted.
5 att, 5 def, 1 hp, 1 fp, 2 move--> obsoleted.
5 att, 5 def, 2 hp, 1 fp, 2 move--> obsoleted.
5 att, 5 def, 2 hp, 2 fp, 2 move--> obsoleted.

The only thing superior with the ship is the movement rate(9). What exactly is making it obsolete some units while leaving the other units untouched?

I have been told that you can work around this by putting crappy units in the muskateer and Knight slot, but I am at a loss as to what exactly the computer considers 'crappy'. I have tried an exhaustive ammount of combinations here, and I just can't seem to get what I want to happen. Any thoughts fellas?

Thanks.
-FMK.

	21-03-2002 00:52									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Maybe it's something to do with their position in the units roster, as it were. Is it only units above the musketeers slot that are being obseleted?

	21-03-2002 01:03									#3
	Got spare money?

Thought of that. 3 of the 4 units not obsoleted are above muskateer slot but there is opne that is in fact below...

-FMK.

	21-03-2002 01:12									#4
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Well, that's me all burned out. I usually try to avoid them, and if I can't I put unbuildable units in the musketeers and knights slots.

	21-03-2002 03:30									#5
	Support Apolyton

I can't really help, but do I have questions.

What are the roles for the obsolete and nonobsolete units? What is the role of the naval unit?

What happens if you change the floating musketeer to a flying musketeer, keeping all other stats the same?

Still, it's odd. What happens if you change the ship mf to 1, 2, etc?

Do you think for any given role, the criteria for obsolescence is based on the sum of mf, af, df, & domain? For example,

Swimming Musketeer = 0 + 2 + 9 + 2 = 13
Obsolete Inf = 5 + 5 + 2 + 0 = 12
Nonobsolete Inf = 6 + 5 + 2 + 0 = 13. Ties are allowed?


Also, Daumen reported some details of the Musketeer slot behavior is version-specific. Which Civ2 flavor are you using?

I know, if 'help' like this were a friend, who needs enemies?

	21-03-2002 08:17									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Paul Hanson Well, that's me all burned out. I usually try to avoid them, and if I can't I put unbuildable units in the musketeers and knights slots.

Ditto.

	21-03-2002 09:48									#7
	Tired of ads?

Don't know if this will help or not but I had something odd happen some time ago with units becoming obsolete when they shouldn't have (AFAIK anyway).
It seemed to be connected in some way to the units domain and just the domain. Those set to something other than attack (I don't really remember what exactly. It may have been a mixture) were made obsolete when a certain unit was allowed. The offending unit was set to attack but I'm not absolutely certain it was in the knight or musketeer slot...

Could you check the obsolete units domain and try changing it over to either attack or the same as either that in the knight or musketeer slot?

	21-03-2002 11:35									#8
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Field Marshal Klesh Thought of that. 3 of the 4 units not obsoleted are above muskateer slot but there is opne that is in fact below... -FMK.

As I recall, your infantry all had 2 move points, so the problem is more likely to be with the knights slot.
What are the stats of the "knight" unit in your scen?

	21-03-2002 12:32									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Link to scenario league
http://apolyton.net/sleague/Guides/sldt_useunits.shtml
most informations here seem to be correct.

The musketeer slot causes problems if Gunpowder (Gun) is discovered. But there are also a lot of other reasons for unit obsoelescence.

Need more information,
please post the complete unitstats(all units).


@UNITS
Slave Worker, no, 0, 1.,0, 0a, 1d, 1h,1f, 8,0, 5,Cor, 000000000000000
Engineers, no, 0, 2.,0, 0a, 2d, 1h,1f, 8,0, 5,Cor, 000001101000000
Italian Infantry, NP, 0, 2.,0, 8a, 5d, 1h,1f, 6,0, 1,Gun, 000100001000000
Early Infantry, NP, 0, 2.,0, 8a, 5d, 1h,1f, 7,0, 1,Gun, 000100001000000
Advanced Infantry, FP, 0, 2.,0, 12a, 8d, 1h,1f, 4,0, 1, NP, 000100001000000
Late Infantry, Sth, 0, 2.,0, 18a,12d, 1h,1f, 4,0, 1, FP, 000100001000000
Modern Infantry, no, 0, 2.,0, 27a,18d, 1h,1f, 4,0, 1,Sth, 000100001000000
Wehrmacht 39, NP, 0, 2.,0, 8a, 5d, 1h,1f, 3,0, 1,Gun, 000000001000110
Resisting Pocket, no, 0, 1.,0, 8a, 9d, 1h,1f, 6,0, 1,Gun, 000111001000000
Partisans, no, 0, 3.,0, 8a, 9d, 1h,1f, 5,0, 5,Cmn, 000111001000010
Wehrmacht 40/41, FP, 0, 2.,0, 12a, 8d, 1h,1f, 4,0, 1, NP, 000001001000110
Wehrmacht 42/43, Sth, 0, 2.,0, 18a,12d, 1h,1f, 6,0, 1, FP, 000001001000100
Wehrmacht 44/45, no, 0, 2.,0, 27a,18d, 1h,1f, 9,0, 1,Sth, 000000001000100
Fallschirmjäger, no, 0, 1.,0, 12a, 8d, 1h,1f, 7,0, 1,Ldr, 000001101000000
Red Army 40/41, NP, 0, 2.,0, 8a, 5d, 1h,1f, 9,0, 1,Gun, 000000001000000
Red Guard, FP, 0, 2.,0, 12a, 8d, 1h,1f, 8,0, 1, NP, 000000001000000
Red Army 42/43, Sth, 0, 2.,0, 18a,12d, 1h,1f, 7,0, 1, FP, 000001001000110
Red Army 44/45, no, 0, 2.,0, 27a,18d, 1h,1f, 6,0, 1,Sth, 000001001000110
British Inf. 39, NP, 0, 2.,0, 8a, 5d, 1h,1f, 9,0, 1,Gun, 000000001000000
British Inf. 40, FP, 0, 2.,0, 12a, 8d, 1h,1f, 4,0, 1, NP, 000000001000000
US Army 44, Sth, 0, 2.,0, 18a,10d, 1h,1f, 4,0, 1, FP, 000001101000100
US Army 45, no, 0, 2.,0, 27a,18d, 1h,1f, 4,0, 1,Sth, 000001101000100
Pz Kw II, Stl, 0, 6.,0, 8a, 5d, 1h,1f, 6,0, 0,Gun, 010000000000010
Pz Kw IV, Mob, 0, 5.,0, 12a, 8d, 1h,1f, 7,0, 0,Stl, 010000000000001
Tiger I, Too, 0, 4.,0, 18a,12d, 1h,1f, 9,0, 0,Mob, 010000000000000
Panther, Min, 0, 5.,0, 27a,18d, 1h,1f, 10,0, 0,Too, 010000000000010
Tiger II, no, 0, 4.,0, 30a,20d, 1h,1f, 11,0, 0,Min, 010000000000000

In this case the slot does'nt cause any problems.
Musketeer unit is Wehrmacht 39,

Or send mail to: Thoddyx@web.de
please include *.sav file. ->researched techs.

	21-03-2002 21:35									#10
	Put an end to popups!

Thanks everybody,

After hours of mindnumbing work, I have managed to sort out the situation. Dont ask me how, as it really is a blur. But, the good news is that it is all fixed and ready to go. Stay tuned for a very nice announcement shortly.


-FMK.