22-03-2002 00:53									#61
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

this is getting silly (I am getting silly) and I'm *really* tired.

Apologies, Amazon and in GeneraP

Last edited by Bereta_Eder on 22-03-2002 at 01:01

	22-03-2002 01:12									#62
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 this is getting silly (I am getting silly) and I'm *really* tired. Apologies, Amazon and in GeneraP

Thanks, Paiktis. You're a good guy most of the time, but the few other times ... eh, well, we're all human, aren't we? We all have an inner darkness chafing against the thin veneer of the civilized dam.

What you need is eight hours of rock-solid sleep. A recent study aside, eight hours in the sack isn't gonna lessen anyone's lifespan. **L**

Gatekeeper

	22-03-2002 02:53									#63
	Suffering from ads?

Paiktis,

You don't need to apologize. I was the one spewing trolls out at everybody. Blame it on the demon rum...

	22-03-2002 03:25									#64
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Until today, Arafat really did nothing to support the cease fire.

A terract two days ago was arranged by a causin of the security chief appointed by Arafat.

Had Arafat really issued orders, a relative of his own security chief wouldn't have done this.


Barghoutti said on an interviews that this should be seen as a response to Sharon's policies, and evil American policies and the fact that Cheney didn't meet with Arafat.

Barghoutti is a chief of the Tanzim - a para-military wing close to Fatah, and is in very strong ties with Arafat.

	22-03-2002 04:20									#65
	Put an end to popups!

Finger pointing finger pointing. Israelis and their supporters love to talk about the evilness of Arafat. Palestinians and sympathetic onlookers love to talk about evilness of Sharon. Lucky us, evil against evil.

As far as I can see, the only "solution" that the Israelis and Palestinians want is to make the other side disappear. Israel must be blasted off the map/Palestinians must be blasted out of Israel. Yes yes, very good. Very effective too. Solves the problem, doesn't it, if one side of the conflict vanishes forever??

	22-03-2002 06:03									#66
	Suffering from ads?

If thats what it takes, thats what it takes.

I don't want to argue the case that Americans are braver or less brave than anyone else. If you want to know what we are made of you can research the War of Northern Aggression.

The point I am making is that it seems to me that Israel is looking at two choices, sweep the country and clean it up now, or simply wait for the PLO to get a suitcase nuke.

They will use it. Maybe not in one of the holy places, but they will use it and it will be a hundred thousand dead.

	22-03-2002 06:46									#67
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I got a question for the Israeli's. Who are the Al-Aqsa brigades? I had never heard of them before this infitada...They seem to make the Hamas ; look like wussies.

	22-03-2002 07:53									#68
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick If thats what it takes, thats what it takes. I don't want to argue the case that Americans are braver or less brave than anyone else. If you want to know what we are made of you can research the War of Northern Aggression. The point I am making is that it seems to me that Israel is looking at two choices, sweep the country and clean it up now, or simply wait for the PLO to get a suitcase nuke. They will use it. Maybe not in one of the holy places, but they will use it and it will be a hundred thousand dead.

And sweeping Palestine clean would therefore prevent the Palestinians from getting a suitcase nuke?

And sweeping Palestine clean would therefore convince the Palestinians not to get a suitcase nuke?

	22-03-2002 07:55									#69
	Re: Another suicide bombing:Why doesn't Israel deal with it? Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick Many as many as 40 injured. As an American, I cannot understand why Israel doesn't respond to this with a scorched earth policy. I understand that such a policy would kill or displace many innocent people but the Palestinian have to be held responsible at some point. Do they not?

What do you think the Israelis been doing for fifty years? Why do you think Palestinians are willing to Kamikaze themselves against Israelis?

	22-03-2002 07:59									#70
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

It seems that the only way Israel has of convincing Palestinians not to attack, is to attack.
Of course, to be fair, vice versa.

quote: I understand that such a policy would kill or displace many innocent people but the Palestinian have to be held responsible at some point. Do they not?

Suicide bomber's logic.

	22-03-2002 15:30									#71
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Israel decided not to retaliate to yesterday's teract.
I guess everyone know what the Pal response will be.

	22-03-2002 15:56									#72
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Eli Israel decided not to retaliate to yesterday's teract. I guess everyone know what the Pal response will be.

Go figure! Another terract, of course!
The problem in your post, of course is that thing about the "Pal response", because we are not talking about a "Pal response" but the actions of specific and easilly identified terrorist groups.

Following your logic, I could say that the Isralelli response to the loss of Jerusalem is: Assassination of own Prime-Minister.
I would agree that this generalization goes too far, but so does yours when you equate the position of terrorist biggots with that of a people.

However all this bombing is getting tiresome, and it is better that Mr. Arafat really does something about it. Just saying to the American Secretary of State that he regrets and do not supports isn't, by far, enough.

Another thing keeps me completely confused is the fact that, although the Israellis seem to know who the terrorists groups leaders are, they do nothing against them. And when they do something about it, they create a new martyr through assassination! Couldn't we see some of them getting caught and being presented to an official court, for a change?

	22-03-2002 17:07									#73
	Support Apolyton

Dr. Stilbi said :

quote: Well, with the current American pressure on Israel, they probably won't retaliate for this assault. This might actually break a vicious circle. I only ope that the Islamic Jihad and Hamas will understand that this is the time to stop teracts and have a small chance on actually achieving peace.

The point was to show that the Hamas and the IJ will continue with their attacks until all their demands are met. The only thing that can stop them for a while is an order from Arafat.

	22-03-2002 17:42									#74
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Hi Eli, sorry it takes so long to reply on your comments. My server went down yesterday and as i'm only able to post at school i didn't get a chance to reply.

quote: We didnt retaliate to yesterday's teract. What did it give us?

You know what you get when you retaliate to every single teract. Not only did it amount to huge losses of innocent lives on both sides. you also got the public opinion of practically the entire world against. Not retaliating will gain much respect and increase pressure on Arafat.

quote: I hope that Hitler will understand that it's time to stop the massacres and have a small chance for peace.

This one was a response to the argument that it's time for hamas and IJ to see peace is the final option. I have to agree I made a mistake there. Those organisations want only one thing and that's to get every Israeli out of the ME, alive or dead, probably alive. It's organisations like this that make it hard for muslims worldwide to gain respect and trust. If Arafat and Sharon could come up with peace terms. Hopefully he'll also give you a carte blanche to arrest all members of those organisations.

quote: Arafat is willing to stop violence if Israel surrenders. Whoopee.

So, is this your pride bothering you? What exactly are his demands concerning your surrender? If it's losing part of your country and go back to the borders of 1967? That's a small price to pay for living in peace and not being afraid to die every time you leave your house, IMHO.

	22-03-2002 18:32									#75
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick The point I am making is that it seems to me that Israel is looking at two choices, sweep the country and clean it up now, or simply wait for the PLO to get a suitcase nuke.

If you really believe these are the only 2 options then you believe that Israel is doomed.

What do you think would happen if Israel were to adopt a 'scorched earth' policy in Palestine (as you so quaintly put it)? Do you not think it would lead to all-out war in the Middle East? Syria and Iraq would instantly attack Israel and possibly moderate Islamic countries like Jordan, Egypt amd maybe even Saudi-Arabia would join in.

Even worse for Israel, they would be regarded as the aggressors by the rest of the World, so they would get no support from the West (although the Jewish lobby in the US would push for it). Indeed, I wouldn't be surprised if the EU provided arms and funding to the Arabs. Ariel Sharon, or whomever was in charge, would be branded a War criminal and economic sanctions would be erected.

Do you really think this would have a desirable outcome for Israel?

	22-03-2002 21:32									#76
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

If Israel does not retaliate, there could still be Palestinian suicide bombers.

But the logic does NOT follow that if Israel does retaliate, there would not be any Palestinian suicide bombers.

If anything, it's the reverse.

	22-03-2002 21:48									#77
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by ranskaldan If anything, it's the reverse.

Until you reach a certain point.
The vast majority of the Israeli actions in the past were :
A) Retaliation, without any iniative. "You hit us, we will hit you back".
B) Directed against the PA, not the other terror organizations. "Today's bombing of this and that building is a sign for Arafat to stop terror". So there was no true operational goal behind the retaliations.

Lately, after one of the last big teracts(I already lost count) Israel started with the incursions to the refugee camps. This is, finally, a smart move. While you risk civilian casualties you hit many gunmen, find lots of weapon and missile catches and the terrorists are busy with fighting the IDF instead of sending suicide bombers to Israeli cities. Of course, that doing only such actions is not really productive, because there are many other places to hit.

IMO, Israel should change the way it thinks and accept that there is no chance for peace with the current leadership. We gave more than we can, and they didnt accept it. Whether it's right or not, we cant give more.
And now, when an enemy is defined you stop with the stupid point B logic, and hit wherever you want, whenever you want with one goal in mind, to destroy everything that causes damage to us. Without waiting for a teract to happen, without blaming everything on a 70 years old child molester locked in his office and without all the restraints we had until today.

----------------------

A suicide bomber, member of the military wing of the Fatah movement blew up in some roadblock near Jenin. One man lightly injured.

	25-03-2002 13:47									#78
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Dr. Stiby You know what you get when you retaliate to every single teract. Not only did it amount to huge losses of innocent lives on both sides.

That's because we dont retaliate strong enough, and not on the right targets. See my previous post.

quote: you also got the public opinion of practically the entire world against.

I dont care about public opinion while my life are in danger. Besides, the US will be with us in almost all possible scenarios and Europe is Europe, we shouldnt even expect support.

quote: Not retaliating will gain much respect and increase pressure on Arafat.

This pressure will not stop the suicide bomber who will explode in my bus. Also, by now, after 38 years with Yasser, we should've understood that all cease fires he makes are tactical ones and stop a minute after he sees the world is with him again.

quote: This one was a response to the argument that it's time for hamas and IJ to see peace is the final option. I have to agree I made a mistake there. Those organisations want only one thing and that's to get every Israeli out of the ME, alive or dead, probably alive. It's organisations like this that make it hard for muslims worldwide to gain respect and trust. If Arafat and Sharon could come up with peace terms. Hopefully he'll also give you a carte blanche to arrest all members of those organisations.

Until the next time he decides to start an Intifada and release them all?

quote: So, is this your pride bothering you? What exactly are his demands concerning your surrender? If it's losing part of your country and go back to the borders of 1967? That's a small price to pay for living in peace and not being afraid to die every time you leave your house, IMHO.

His demands are simple. Return to the 1967 borders, make transfer for 200,000 Jews, divide your capital, and then we'll talk about further concessions you have to make for a permanent peace treaty. And then, he can start looking for a reason to begin another Intifada.

	26-03-2002 16:59									#79
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Two terrorists were killed after the police caught their car in the entrance to the Malha mall in Jerusalem. The Fatah claimed responsibility.

It looks like Arafat will be allowed to go to the summit, but IMO he will either decide not to go or he will go and not return.
Tommorow is the Pesach eve, the police and the IDF are on the highest alert possible, all policeman are out in the streets.
Despite this, tomorrow and the next few days will be bloody bloody days. And if Arafat is smart enough he will not go to the summit, knowing that after those teracts he wont be able to return.

Btw, March, is the most bloody month of the Intifada. 72 Israelis were killed, and around the 200 Palestinians.
Just think how many lives could be saved if Israel had invaded the territories in the first week of the Intifada, when it was clear to the intelligence services that the Palestinians plan to continue with the terror for couple years.