24-03-2002 13:07									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Case Re the unhappyness: I don't think that increasing the number of entertainers is a satisfactory solution. Once I start to build bombers and move units out of the cities these entertainers will be overwealmed, and I'll be faced with unhistorical riots against the war. In addition, the entertainers will come at the cost of my economy, which is also undesirable.

This was not what was done, the american luxery rating was increased to 20% from 10% which basicly made riots incredibly unlikely (most cities are on the verge of celebrating).
This doesn't affect the american economy much, they are still the best money making machine in the game

EDIT: I'm not against moving the german wonder that has no effect for them though, it does seem kind of unnecesary though.
The way it looks now every american city has almost all of thier citizens as "happy" which would mean that you'd need a lot of units to make the cities riot... (what about making them republics instead of democracys? That would reduce the unhappiness to one citizen per unit (and eliminate it for whoever has wommens sufrage) and give these two civs some corruption as well, which they probably should have anyway).

	24-03-2002 16:28									#32
	Got spare money?

Why not simply increase the riot factor for cities in the rules.txt? Similarly, why not raise the minimum number of citizens when unhappiness starts to occur at Deity to 2 or 3? This would not affect Germany or Japan, but it would make a big difference to the U.S. and Britain.

	24-03-2002 23:54									#33
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quote: Originally posted by our_man Why not simply increase the riot factor for cities in the rules.txt? Similarly, why not raise the minimum number of citizens when unhappiness starts to occur at Deity to 2 or 3? This would not affect Germany or Japan, but it would make a big difference to the U.S. and Britain.

All good ideas, I wish I had thought of that (but that's why im no scenario designer ).

Some things that I have noticed form playing the first turn as Britain (mainly nitpicking):

1. The British Empire should have a higher population especially in Africa. Africa looks very sparce and empty, it wouldn't hurt to put a few more cities in there. Also India's population should be higher, not more cities, just beef up each city by 3-4 pop points (BTW, It should be over-crowded) but still keep it under developed.

2. Weren't Kabul and Terhan pert of the Britosh Empire? (point me out if im wrong here)

3. Birmingham in that position should really be called Liverpool or Manchester, it's too far north.

4. Is there any room for Anzac, Indian, Canadian and other empire troops? Maybe just one unit called Dominion Infantry or something. Basically it could be the same price as Infantry now ( UK Infantry price could be jacked up), only maybe set in that way that it's beeing built in certain places at the start, but if you change it you can't build it.

5. I think the Suez Canal should be a city not a waterway like now. This way the city would be very valuable as it could shorten travel times ( Germans go the long way round, Brits just take the city/canal short-cut).

6. The fortress outside Alexandria could be beefed up a bit, only one unit though (I know El Alemain didn't happen until October '42).

Well thats my two pence (I refuse to become americaniSed ).

	25-03-2002 00:13									#34
	Lots being debated here... lets see.... Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I had the thought of moving the King Richard's Wonder (Pittsburg Steel) over to Germany, rename it Krupp Steel or somesuch. Perhaps give Pittsburg more production improvements and Industry terrain so it is already good and productive from the start. This way, Germany will have one city that would be crucial for pumping out its high cost units later in the War.

We also have this proposal for moving the German 'Hitler Youth' over as well. Though this seems to be uneccissary now.

But as it is, the American economy is fine, they are making tons of cash and they are all quite happy (on the verge of WLPD).

Some have suggested changing govenrment forms, but this could unforseeably throw things way out of proportion. If I were to switch them, I would prefer to make the Ami's and Brits to go to Republic. This is a halfway between Demo and Commie. Placing a few more Palaces could ease the corruption for England (India, S.Africa). Corruption IMHO should be there to simulate how England lost her colonies after the war, but should not be a crippling factor during it.

I agree to make the Wermacht the same cost as the Brit Infantry. I will also look into other possibilities of cost reduction...perhaps
-1 across the board for the later german weapons.

Also perhaps raise the Red Army cost from 1 to 2, so the Soviets loose their rushbuilding advantage? Thoughts?

But for instance the 88MP Gun is one bad mofo in this game. Attacking planes, defending 2x against air attack, pike etc... I don't want to see too many of those as they would be near impossible to crack. So some units will have to stay on the high end of things. What are your desires in this area Mike?

Also, I have aquired a much cooler looking Ju-87 from Curt Sibling the 'Enemy Ace', great work Curt!

Lets try to discuss these things point by point so we make some progress. With the mechanics working now, this isnt far from finalization.

-FMK.

	25-03-2002 00:59									#35
	You posted in mid-post for me..... Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by mordhiem All good ideas, I wish I had thought of that (but that's why im no scenario designer).

This *should* no longer be needed.

quote: 1. The British Empire should have a higher population especially in Africa. Africa looks very sparce and empty, it wouldn't hurt to put a few more cities in there. Also India's population should be higher, not more cities, just beef up each city by 3-4 pop points (BTW, It should be over-crowded) but still keep it under developed.

Good ideas! They will be looked into for sure. Dont want to make it too much of an advantage though...

quote: 2. Weren't Kabul and Terhan pert of the Britosh Empire? (point me out if im wrong here)

I am pretty sure that Tehran was... I will have to look into Kabul... Does anyone see this an imbalancing in any way?

quote: 3. Birmingham in that position should really be called Liverpool or Manchester, it's too far north.

Okay, I'll look into this as well.

quote: 4. Is there any room for Anzac, Indian, Canadian and other empire troops? Maybe just one unit called Dominion Infantry or something. Basically it could be the same price as Infantry now ( UK Infantry price could be jacked up), only maybe set in that way that it's beeing built in certain places at the start, but if you change it you can't build it.

I thought about a 'Commonwealth Troops' unit earlier... There are simply no unit slots available for this.

quote: 5. I think the Suez Canal should be a city not a waterway like now. This way the city would be very valuable as it could shorten travel times ( Germans go the long way round, Brits just take the city/canal short-cut).

Yes, right on my man. Good call. I will do so. What are the suggestions as to the quality of the city? Is it to simulate the canal only, or the actual city? Yet another Brit city in North Afrika could smash any hopes of German victory there... What size and attributes do you suggest?

quote: 6. The fortress outside Alexandria could be beefed up a bit, only one unit though (I know El Alemain didn't happen until October '42).

I dont think this would hurt... I will make it so!

-FMK.

	25-03-2002 01:24									#36
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One problem with the Suez being a city is that the Americans and other allies cannot use it.

But I am using it in mine, I just wanted to let you know in advance, I think it is a great idea because it makes the city very important.

I think it should be a small city with no production built on a higher defense terrain.

Pap

	25-03-2002 01:26									#37
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Iran (Persia) was invaded by a combined Anglo-Russian force, and Kabul was independent, leave them as is.

Germany is hurting, no need to beef up North Africa, Britain has plenty of armor quite close.

I think we should try the gov switch for allies, try republic, but odd things will happen SP, the AI will bribe units (I have seen this in 2194 days, despite there being no diplos/spys).

Don't know about the KRC wonder, might make things to easy for Germany.

	25-03-2002 02:07									#38
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Few things

regarding Suez:

I remember a while back some threads floating around about how some people discovered how two civs could share a city. I wasn't paying too much attention that that at the time but does anyone remember how to do that? If it's possible that should be done to all UK and Australian cities along with Suez so the Americans and British can defend and pass through these cities.

quote: This way, Germany will have one city that would be crucial for pumping out its high cost units later in the War. We also have this proposal for moving the German 'Hitler Youth' over as well. Though this seems to be uneccissary now.

Sounds alright to me if you just trade these wonders. Give America a happiness wonder and Germany a production wonder. Sounds fair to me.

quote: But for instance the 88MP Gun is one bad mofo in this game. Attacking planes, defending 2x against air attack, pike etc... I don't want to see too many of those as they would be near impossible to crack. So some units will have to stay on the high end of things. What are your desires in this area Mike?

I don't mind if those are costly to build, BUT they will be easily destroyed by T-34s and Allied heavy tanks. The Pikeman attribute does not multiply the defense by 2, and it only works when the attacking unit has 1HP 1FP and low attack, under 10 for sure. I've basically considered the pike function useless.

	25-03-2002 02:11									#39
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I think that in North Africa, the Germans should be given all of the cities that are Neutral, Algiers and Casablanca. I know they were controlled by the Vichy government, but so was all of southern France, and they are all cities given to Germany.

Another reason they should be German is because when the Allies launched Operation Tourch, they invaded Vichy North Africa, including Algeirs. The Germans had units stationed there.

Just an idea.

Pap

	26-03-2002 14:21									#40
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Downloaded v5 and opened cheat mode to investigate (no time to play this week but can't wait). Strangely US can't build G.I. and Germany can't build field artillery. Think about it: Germany's only reliable land unit is the Panzer tank, which is a lot more expensive than light tanks but only slightly better in attack (9 vs. 8). This makes the Panzer not attractive at all! Furthermore, what do you want Germany to use when attacking cities? Panzers don't have ignore city wall flag and wermacht is way way too weak.

	26-03-2002 22:34									#41
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Hi Xin,

quote: Strangely US can't build G.I. and Germany can't build field artillery.

I am DLing v5 too to make sure, but here is what I think is happening:

Unless you look at each specific country's buildable lists as that country (using Shift+F3), you'll end up seeing a list of what the AI can build. This is some strange phenomenon regarding the Musk and Knight slots. When a human is in control of the nation, their buildable lists become full.

Just finished the DL and cued it up. Americans can indeed build the G.I., and the Germans can also build the Artillery unit.

quote: Germany's only reliable land unit is the Panzer tank, which is a lot more expensive than light tanks but only slightly better in attack (9 vs. 8). This makes the Panzer not attractive at all!

Those stats were set in the original 2194 by Nemo, perhaps this speaks to Mike's concerns with units costs though. Would you suggest lowering it to only 10 more gold rather than 20?

quote: Furthermore, what do you want Germany to use when attacking cities? Panzers don't have ignore city wall flag and wermacht is way way too weak.

Germany can develop the 105mm Wespe assault gun. It ignores city walls and has an 11 attack as opposed to 9 of the Field Artillery. It is very effective for attacking cities seeing as it moves 3.

-FMK.

	27-03-2002 00:14									#42
	Put an end to popups!

FMK: You picked Allied advantage setting, which makes the Soviet units too strong. Probably better to take the average between Allied advantage and Axis advantage rules. Under the current rule Soviet units are impossible to stop:

30 shield Red Guard, att 7, def 5, hp 2, fp 2. More than twice as strong as the Imp. Marine of Japan and Fallschirmjäger of Germany. Plus it has move 3 instead of move 2. Furthermore, it is good enough to take out any Japanese land unit and almost all Germany land units -- If I play the Soviet I'll simply rush buy a barracks then rush this unit every turn (110 golds each). I don't need to research anything. I just sell all city improvements then use the money to rush buy. Who can stop me?

50 shield T-34 tank, move 3, att 12, def 10, hp 3, fp 3. Again twice as strong as the PzKwIV Tank of germany and light tank of Japan.

80 shield IS-2 Heavy Tank, Fortify this inside a city paired with a fighter, who can take it out?

	27-03-2002 01:44									#43
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quote: 80 shield IS-2 Heavy Tank, Fortify this inside a city paired with a fighter, who can take it out?

The Romanian brigade!!!

Well... maybe they can't... but it sure would be fun to watch.

	27-03-2002 05:47									#44
	Units cost attempt Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Here is an attempt at balancing the unit costs etc. Some historcial elements exist with att/def stats and cost while others have been greatly reduced.

Also of note is that I think the AA Battery should be reduced to 0 move. This thwarts the all too-powerful AA/Bomber combo that Xin taught me. Slap a few engineers under them...instant fortress= 'invincible semi-cheat'.

What do you guys think about these changes and this current set up?

__________________________________________________

@UNITS
Nationalist Army,nil, 0, 2.,0, 3a,5d, 2h,1f, 1,0, 0, Ast, 000000001000000
Engineers, Ast, 0, 2.,0, 0a,2d, 1h,1f, 4,0, 5, Gun, 000000000000000
Wehrmacht, nil, 0, 2.,0, 5a,5d, 1h,1f, 2,0, 3, E2, 000000001000000
Imperial Marines,nil, 0, 2.,0, 6a,5d, 2h,1f, 3,0, 0, Alp, 000000001000100
Infantry, nil, 0, 2.,0, 5a,5d, 1h,1f, 2,0, 0, Bro, 000000001000000
G.I., nil, 0, 2.,0, 5a,5d, 1h,1f, 2,0, 3, War, 000000001000000
Red Army, nil, 0, 2.,0, 5a,5d, 1h,1f, 2,0, 0, Ind, 000000001000000
He-177, nil, 1, 12.,4, 16a,6d, 4h,5f, 11,0, 0, Whe, 000000000000001
Panther Tank, nil, 0, 3.,0, 11a,6d, 3h,2f, 8,0, 3, Esp, 000000000000000
Partisans, nil, 0, 2.,0, 7a,6d, 2h,2f, 6,0, 1, no, 000011001000010
Paratroopers, nil, 0, 2.,0, 6a,5d, 2h,1f, 4,0, 3, CA, 000000101000000
90mm AT Gun, nil, 0, 1.,0, 9a,6d, 2h,2f, 5,0, 3, CoL, 000010000000000
A.A.Battery, nil, 0, 0.,0, 0a,6d, 3h,2f, 8,0, 3, Too, 010000000000000
Light Tank, PT, 0, 3.,0, 8a,4d, 3h,2f, 5,0, 0, Aut, 000000000000000
PzKw IV Tank, nil, 0, 3.,0, 10a,5d, 3h,2f, 7,0, 0, Csc, 000000000000000
T-34 Tank, nil, 0, 3.,0, 11a,6d, 3h,2f, 6,0, 0, CoL, 000000000000000
Liberty Ship, nil, 2, 9.,0, 0a,2d, 3h,1f, 4,8, 4, SE, 000000000000000
M4 Sherman Tank,nil, 0, 3.,0, 10a,4d, 3h,2f, 5,0, 0, Chi, 000000000000000
Churchill Tank,nil, 0, 3.,0, 10a,7d, 3h,2f, 6,0, 0, Cur, 000000000000000
B-29 Superfortress , nil, 1, 14.,5, 17a,8d, 5h,6f, 14,0, 0, Env, 000000000000001
Armored Infantry,nil, 0, 3.,0, 7a,8d, 2h,2f, 5,0, 1, Feu, 000000000000000
Panzergrenadiers,nil, 0, 3.,0, 6a,8d, 2h,2f, 7,0, 1, Lab, 000000000000000
Königstiger, nil, 0, 2.,0, 13a,10d, 4h,3f, 11,0, 0, Ldr, 000000000000000
Katyusha Rockets,nil, 0, 2.,0, 14a,2d, 2h,3f, 9,0, 0, Phy, 000000001000000
Mobile Howitzer,nil, 0, 2.,0, 14a,3d, 2h,2f, 9,0, 3, Exp, 000000001000000
88mm MP Gun, nil, 0, 1.,0, 9a,4d, 2h,2f, 8,0, 0, Rob, 010010000010000
Field Artillery,PT, 0, 2.,0, 9a,2d, 2h,3f, 3,0, 0, Too, 000000001000000
Me262 Jet Fighter,nil, 1, 4.,1, 10a,6d, 4h,2f, 13,0, 0, AFl, 010000000010001
P-51 Mustang, nil, 1, 10.,2, 9a,5d, 3h,2f, 9,0, 3, X2, 010000000010001
Motorized Infantry,nil, 0, 3.,0, 6a,6d, 2h,1f, 6,0, 1, Aut, 000000000000000
A6M2 Zero, nil, 1, 10.,1, 7a,4d, 3h,2f, 5,0, 3, Sea, 010000000010001
Fighter, PT, 1, 9.,1, 4a,2d, 2h,2f, 5,0, 3, Fli, 010000000010001
Me109 Fighter,nil, 1, 9.,1, 7a,4d, 3h,2f, 7,0, 3, Pot, 010000000010001
IL-2 Shturmovik,nil, 1, 10.,1, 12a,5d, 3h,3f, 8,0, 0, The, 000000000000001
Bomber, PT, 1, 6.,2, 10a,2d, 4h,4f, 9,0, 0, Fli, 000000000000001
Spitfire, nil, 1, 10.,1, 8a,5d, 3h,2f, 7,0, 3, Wri, 010000000010001
Torpedo Plane, nil, 1, 6.,2, 14a,2d, 3h,4f, 8,0, 2, X1, 100000000001001
Destroyer, PT, 2, 7.,0, 6a,4d, 3h,1f, 6,0, 2, Stl, 100000000000000
Cruiser, PT, 2, 7.,0, 8a,6d, 4h,2f, 8,0, 2, Stl, 100000000000001
Freighter, nil, 2, 6.,0, 0a,2d, 3h,1f, 6,4, 4, Cmb, 000000000000000
Battleship, PT, 2, 6.,0, 12a,12d, 6h,4f, 16,0, 2, Aut, 000000000000000
Submarine, PT, 2, 4.,0, 10a,2d, 3h,2f, 6,0, 2, Cmp, 000000000001000
Aircraft Carrier,nil, 2, 6.,0, 0a,8d, 6h,1f, 16,0, 2, Gen, 010000010000000
Comet Tank, nil, 0, 3.,0, 12a,7d, 4h,3f, 9,0, 0, NF, 000000000000000
Ki-84 Hayate, nil, 1, 8.,2, 9a,5d, 3h,3f, 8,0, 3, U3, 010000000010001
IS-2 Heavy Tank,nil, 0, 2.,0, 13a,10d, 4h,3f, 11,0, 0, Med, 000000000000000
Super Battleship,nil, 2, 6.,0, 18a,14d, 8h,5f, 18,0, 2, Plu, 000000000000000
Type XXI U-Boat,nil, 2, 6.,0, 12a,4d, 3h,4f, 7,0, 2, X5, 000000000001001
Gloster Meteor,nil, 1, 5.,1, 10a,6d, 4h,2f, 13,0, 0, X7, 010000000010001
Freight, nil, 0, 2.,0, 0a,1d, 1h,1f, 5,0, 7, SFl, 000000000000010
Yak-9 Fighter,nil, 1, 10.,1, 7a,5d, 3h,2f, 7,0, 3, Uni, 010000000010001
Ju-87 Stuka, nil, 1, 8.,1, 8a,2d, 3h,2f, 5,0, 0, Pot, 000000000000001
B-17 Bomber, nil, 1, 12.,4, 16a,6d, 4h,5f, 11,0, 0, War, 000000000000001
Avro Lancaster,nil, 1, 8.,2, 16a,6d, 4h,5f, 11,0, 0, U1, 000000000000001
M10 Tank Destrotroyer,nil, 0, 3.,0, 12a,2d, 3h,2f, 6,0, 0, Hor, 000000000000000
P-47D Thunderbolt,nil, 1, 10.,1, 12a,5d, 3h,2f, 8,0, 0, X4, 010000000010001
G8N Rezan, nil, 1, 12.,4, 16a,5d, 3h,5f, 12,0, 0, Lit, 000000000000001
Fallschirmjäger,nil, 0, 2.,0, 6a,5d, 2h,1f, 4,0, 0, E2, 000000101000010
Red Guard, nil, 0, 2.,0, 6a,5d, 2h,2f, 4,0, 3, Ind, 000010001000000
M26 Pershing, nil, 0, 2.,0, 12a,8d, 4h,3f, 10,0, 0, Mys, 000000000000000
105mm Wespe, nil, 0, 2.,0, 14a,3d, 3h,2f, 9,0, 3, X3, 000000001000000
LVT-2, nil, 0, 2.,0, 10a,5d, 3h,2f, 5,0, 0, X6, 000000000000100
__________________________________________________

(updated as of the latest changes)

Thoughs? Please.....

-FMK.

Last edited by Field Marshal Klesh on 27-03-2002 at 23:23

	27-03-2002 07:00									#45
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

IS-2 too strong on defense. A Wespe won't be able to even dent it.

Wehrmacht cost is still 30 instead of 20.

	27-03-2002 07:20									#46
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Nope, thats the Wermacht's role that is set to 3 to fool the Ai with the Knight/ Musketeer thingy... the cost is set at 20.

But for the IS-2 defense check these stats out.

IS-2
Crew 4
Armament
Main :122 mm
Secondary: 1 x 12,7 mm, 3 x 7,62 mm
Armour: 20 - 160 mm
Dimensions
Length 9,83 m
Height:2,73 m
Width : 3,07 m
Weight 46.000 kg
Horsepower ?
Transmission 10
Max speed: 37 km/h
Range : 150 km


PzKw VI E
Crew 5
Armament
Main: 8,8cm KwK36 L/56
Secondary: 2 x 7,92mm MG34
Weight (tons) 57
Length (metres) 8,45
Width (metres) 3,7
Height (metres) 2,93
Speed (km/h) 38
Range (km) 140
Armor (mm) 25 - 100


Notice that the IS-2 has 60mm more armour in spots than the Tiger. Granted, the Germans lost their Tiger II for this version which is more comparable to the IS-2. Maybe the Kv-1 would be a better choice, but I would think you would want the Soviets to have to wait a loooong time before they get their heavier tank.
And then the Kv-1 isnt nearly as hardcore as the Tiger....

Are you suggesting the Tiger and the IS-2 have the same defensive stats?

-FMK.

	27-03-2002 09:02									#47
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I think I will make the 105mm Wespe have the same attack (14) as the other Assault type ign. city walls units (Mobile Howitzer and Katyushas). This will also have to raise its cost to 90 shields, the same as the others. Ok? Also note the costs for the IS-2 and Tiger I's were changed to be the same.

Also, I am going to continue to update that list above... so everyone keep an eye on it as the stats will be changing.

-FMK.

	27-03-2002 12:41									#48
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Could you reduce the Katusha and Wespe's moves to 2? 3 seems a bit excessive.

The Zero is also too strong in 2194 days, so perhaps you can tone that down a bit. (see the 'most dominant fighter ever' thread on the OT)

BTW, from what you've posted the Me-262's range is set to 3 - is this a typo?

Re the IS-2. From memory, the IS-2 was specifically designed to counter the Tiger, so their stats should be close. While Tiger boasted a more sophisticated gun and better made armour, the IS-2 made up for this through its heavier calibre gun and thicker armour. In addition, I think that the IS-2 was more reliable and was build in far greater numbers then the Tiger.

	27-03-2002 20:50									#49
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Case Could you reduce the Katusha and Wespe's moves to 2? 3 seems a bit excessive.

I assume you want me to do the same to the American's Mobile Howitzer unit? I consider it to be in the same class as the 105 Wespe and Katyushas.

I try to group units into simmilar unit-types and then, within that group, I try to reflect any historical differences.

quote: The Zero is also too strong in 2194 days, so perhaps you can tone that down a bit. (see the 'most dominant fighter ever' thread on the OT)

Well, seeing as the zero had no self-sealing fuel tanks and no armour whatsoever, I could bring its defense down from 4 to 3. But, the Japanese are supposed to be at their peak of fighting when the scenario starts, so why reduce their early fighter's stats. Maybe make the Zero more costly, such that the Japanese player must try to discover their Ki-84 Hayate, which would be a better plane at only slightly higher cost? Nick, what exactly do you mean by tone down, there are several ways to do this in the rules.

quote: BTW, from what you've posted the Me-262's range is set to 3 - is this a typo?

No, thats it's movement allowance. The range is set to one.

quote: Re the IS-2. From memory, the IS-2 was specifically designed to counter the Tiger, so their stats should be close. While Tiger boasted a more sophisticated gun and better made armour, the IS-2 made up for this through its heavier calibre gun and thicker armour. In addition, I think that the IS-2 was more reliable and was build in far greater numbers then the Tiger.

Tiger I Tank, nil, 0, 2.,0, 12a,9d, 4h,3f, 11,0, 0, Ldr, 000000000000000
IS-2 Heavy Tank,nil, 0, 2.,0, 13a,10d, 4h,3f, 11,0, 0, Med, 000000000000000

Does this accomplish what you are talking about? They cost the same, but the attack and defense are both +1 for the IS-2.

Main gun: 88mm / 122mm = +1 attack for the IS-2.
Armour: 25-100mm / 20-160mm = +1 defense for the IS-2.


Anyone else? Gotta speak up now y'all.

-FMK.

	27-03-2002 21:35									#50
	Or... Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I could replace the TigerI with the TigerII. Doesnt make sense to have a 'II' without a 'I', but it would be more of a match to the IS-2 in the 'Heavy Tank' department. This is just a thought...

-FMK.

	27-03-2002 21:44									#51
	Increase Your PM Length

I think it is a good idea since the Tiger I was plagued by constant problems, and other than being a bigger tank than the Panther, it wasn't necesarily better. The Tiger II, while not built in high numbers, took the best of the Tiger I and the Panther in its design.

The only problem I can see is that the Tiger II needs to be more expensive than the Tiger I and the Is-2 becuase it was such a complex design and it took a lot of resources to build.

Pap

	27-03-2002 22:55									#52
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Case BTW, from what you've posted the Me-262's range is set to 3 - is this a typo? .

No, it's my idea.
The plane was designed as a point defense interceptor, and it ate fuel like a bastard.
Now it get's a shot at planes nearby, but it is no hunter.

	27-03-2002 23:16									#53
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I think that was just Case misreading the stats.. in any event here are another set of changes.

TigerI is going to be replaced by the Königstiger. Same stats as the IS-2.

The jets are to be intercepters, but I will give them both +1 movement now... Meteor gets move 5, Me262 gets move 4.

Also been editing the new Curt Sibling B-17 to replace the old Nemo one as well.

-FMK.

	28-03-2002 07:48									#54
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

OK, good ideas with the Me-262 and Tiger II

I meant to include mobile artillery in the list of units whose moves should be changed.

Could you reduce the attack value of the He-177? The aircraft was a real turkey, and definetly wasn't in the same league as the Lancaster or B-29

	28-03-2002 07:49									#55
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Case,
That is a good point about the He-177. It had millions of technical problems and the only way to show that is to lower it's attack rating!

Good call.

Pap

	28-03-2002 09:12									#56
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Yes, three cheers for the Tiger II, the greatest tank in WW2... next to the Turan II.

	28-03-2002 09:13									#57
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quote: Could you reduce the attack value of the He-177? The aircraft was a real turkey, and definetly wasn't in the same league as the Lancaster or B-29

If you want to get picky, couldn't you just replace the He-177 with the Junkers 88? Weren't the Junkers used more anyway?

	28-03-2002 09:36									#58
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quote: Originally posted by MagyarCrusader If you want to get picky, couldn't you just replace the He-177 with the Junkers 88? Weren't the Junkers used more anyway?

The Ju-88 was a relatively short ranged tactical bomber, and the He-177 was the closest the Germans came to a strategic bomber.

The Germans did produce some other designs (The Amerika bomber for instance), but the He-177 was the only one to actually enter production (over a thousand were built). The He-177's problems were mainly based around the over-ambitious engine arrangement, and the fact that for some insane reason, the Luftwaffe wanted the aircraft to be a dive bomber as well as a strategic bomber!

	28-03-2002 09:39									#59
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quote: Originally posted by MagyarCrusader Yes, three cheers for the Tiger II, the greatest tank in WW2... next to the Turan II.

The Sentinal would have kicked its arse!

	28-03-2002 11:27									#60
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I have to disagree boys, about the 177.

If you penalize it, you must also do the same for Panthers (mechincal reliability), tigers (same thing), early B-29s, ect.

Think of it as Perfected, not as the flying mistake it was.

The Ju-88 was a medium bomber, the 177 a four-engine heavybomber.

Leave it as is for play balence, the Germans had enough taken from them.