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Chris 62
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But I'm feeling MUCH better now
Jan 2001
time: 00:18
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To give an idea of some of the changes, Germany and Japan's offensive capabilities have been toned down, the SS are gone, but both Japan and Germany get a heavy bomber and advanced fighter to research.
Britain can now build LVT's, and has an advanced tank beyound the Churchill (The Comet), lost it's Mosquito, but gained a jet fighter, the Meteor!
Russia starts with better defense along it's Japan border, can research a super heavy tank (Js-2).
The USA can build B-17s at start, and cannot lose pearl harbor on the first turn, it's P-47 is now a fighter, as well as several other changes.
There are no raillines, but all infantry can now move 2, and only a few fighters are top of the line for bomber intercept are among the many changes.
Hopefully, this will all work well, but if not, we will just have to fix it. 
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Soundwave
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Looks good, and i hope to see new work continue!
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Field Marshal Klesh
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Klesh Marshal Field
Jan 2000
time: 00:18
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Excellent fellas. This is what I meant for this to be. We all love playing this scen, but we all know there are things that should change, and I certainly cant do everything right the first time etc. These suggestions are very nice, lets go through some shall we?
quote:
I was playing and even though the first turn, the Americans researched Wartime Production, they were not able to build the Ammunition plant. |
Yes, I don't know what is going on with this. I checked and no one can build them when they get Wartime Production. It should be cumulative toward the Steel Mill. But when I seel a Steel Mill off in an American city, it isnt available for building either!!! The Steel Mill doesnt even show up in the Civlopedia. The Ammunition Plant is in the Civilopedia, and its listed as being available with Wartime Production. I dojnt know whats happening here... I didnt even fiddle with this.
quote:
Would it be possible to fiddle around with things so that at least some of the German 'happy' wonders, which aren't needed with a Facist government, are in the US? |
Yes, of course it is! Great idea.  I am in favor of using the 'Nuremberg Rallies 1938', as it will count as a Cathedral in every US City. I like the idea 'Hollywood' for this. I will try switching just one wonder, and if needed I'll do another.
I have no idea why these cities went into disorder when they didn't used to before? If anything they should be more happy, as they have more units in their cities...strange.
I agree with Mike that the Germans shouldn't lose all these wonders as the tithes are quite important to their economy. We'll see if losing Nuremberg Rallies hurts them too much. I will also add some entertainers into the US cities.
quote:
Budapest was one of the biggest, longest, and ugliest battles on the Eastern Front. There was no major battles at Belgrade. Anyone how knows the least about this theater will tell you that. Belgrade even has control over the Ploiesti oil fields and that should be Bucharest. |
Well Mike, what do you suggest? I can very easily give control of the Oil Field terrain to Bucharest, and even move the Ploesti Wonder into Bucharest as well. What do you suggest for a city size? As it is now, Belgrade is size 12 and Bucharest is size 4. Where do you suggest these to be?
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Personal feelings aside... |
Yeah right. 
quote:
I also was thinking that the G.I. should be able to make amphibious assaults so that the Americans can island hop in the Pacific. |
Well I think they should have no problem island hopping with those LVT-2's. The Ami's didnt island hop right away, and building a few of those amphibious vehicles will surely do the trick after a quick shore bombardment. Brit infantry cannot assault amphibiously, but they are allowed to research the LVT-2 as well. I think this gives Japan a nice window of oppertunity to run wild in the Pacific before the Allies can react.
What are everyone else's thoughts on this?
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Why does German units cost more production in comparison to other civs? |
This is because Germany starts with alot of tanks and planes and Infantry. They are on the move from the start so later on, cheap units for them would allow their advance to continue infinately. They were never able to field their later armours in sufficient numbers. If they develop their economy properly, they still shouldn't have too much problem with this.
Okay, I'll try these changes and post an update.
-FMK.
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Leonidas
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Nice work, FMK. It's nice to see Civ2 is still going strong.
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MagyarCrusader
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Fascist
Jan 1970
time: 21:18
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To FMK-
First off, let me apologize. I forgot in my previous post to thank you for updating the scenario and to compliment you on your so. Good job and thanks for your dedication.
Secondly,
My main concern over the Belgrade/Bucharest mix up was actually in the event and I don't know if you've fixed it or not. Here's what Nemo had:
@IF
CITYTAKEN
city=Belgrade
attacker=Soviets
defender=Germans
@THEN
TEXT
^With the loss of Belgrade, the Germans lose control of one of the most
^important ressources in the war: The Ploeisti oil fields in Rumania.
^With this loss German tanks and airplanes will soon be without fuel...
ENDTEXT
JUSTONCE
@ENDIF
That is horribly wrong! I can expect this kind of mistake out of a newbie but not Nemo. 
quote:
Mike, I think I misread your earleir post. I have indeed switched Bucharest to be size 10, given it the 'Oil Fields' terrain, and better city improvements.
But you were speaking to the fact that Belgrade is in there at all. So I took the liberty of renaming Belgrade to Budapest. In fact, when I look at the map, the city is question is better off being Budapest anyway. |
Correct! Thank you.
quote:
I'll take some time to test if the game is balanced. After the SS is gone and the Imp. Marine is downgraded, the Soviet seems to have a big advantage from its Red Guard unit.
Soviet starts with a 10 shield unit, the other two Allied nations start with 20, Axis nations start with 30. Hence it is too big an advantage for the Allied when rush buying units in one turn.
So all in all, I think this game is in favour of the Allied. Japan may have a chance to blitz the US continent using its navy + AM Zeros, but Germany has no chance at all. |
This is exactly what I was afraid of and I'm even more worried now that Xin Yu is sharing in my early suspicion. I think FMK may have over compensated the Allies. This works well if you want the game to turn out historically, but historically Germany lost primarily to poor leadership (aka Hitler was f*d in the head).
Heres how the game plays out in my mind, similar to the Axis & Allies board games: Axis start with a pile of units and must inflict as much damage as possible within the first turn or two to win. If the game is prolonged any later, they will lose due to attrition being heavily in favor of the Allies. And since this is a revised version, it seems FMK beefed up the Allies so much to make the initial blitz almost impossible to accomplish. This way the game will last longer, which is good. However, the bad thing is the Axis will have no chance due to the heavy economic factors coming in for the Allies to suceed as the game progresses. According to the initial demographic, Germany is 3rd in manufacturing goods and Japan is 5th. This already a major disadvantage for them. Then, you have the fact that their units cost more to produce blow the problem up to greater proportions. I believe Xin Yu is right in saying Germany has no chance. What I suggest is lowering German unit costs' to the same as the Allies, and maybe lessening the amount of troops they start with. Hopefully this creates an atmosphere to allow the game to intensify as time progresses instead of the game being decided when Germany fails to take Moscow at the end of the first turn. The worst thing that will happen in this situation is the war will not progress with precise historical accuracy, but it wasn't meant to in the first place.
Just my thoughts. If not, I'll just play as the British or Soviets. 
Also FMK, I'm on Spring Break this week. So if you need any help at all I've got some free time. mihaly@jeszenka.com
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Chris 62
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But I'm feeling MUCH better now
Jan 2001
time: 00:18
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First off, don't blame FMK for Germany's postion, blame me, I was behind it, and Germany and Japan SHOULD lose the war.
More then bad leadership lost WWII Mag.
In the released 2194 days, it was a teutonic fantasy, Germany had it all, was FAR to powerful.
They have a real chance to still win, provided they research better tanks, and the Strategic bomber now availible to them.
Historically, Germany could NOT kick in the door in Russia in December of 41, now they can't here either.
The true reasons for Germany's defeat will quickly become clear, two front war, and they need to address this.
It means all the beloved strategies are gone, but bare in mind, so are railroads, invincable fighters clearing cities, and a lot of other unrealistic things.
Japan could not attack on five fronts historically, yet a typical 2194 game saw Japan on the US west coast on turn one, China nearly wiped out, the Soviel far east shattered, the East indies taken, and Austraila invaded.
All nonsense, and totally ahistorical.
FMK:
I'm TOTALLY against giving the USA the German wonders, they should not get this bonus, leave them with Germany, if only to deny it to the USA.
As for the happiness thing, when you made more USA units, are they "non" units or are they city supported?
In Democracy, eventually you reach a point where the city revolts if you build another unit, whether it leaves the city or not.
CaseI'm against giving Britain the torpedo bomber, Britain used the Fiarey Swordfish and the Skua divebomber till 43, neither had the effectivness of the Kate/Val or the US SBD Dauntless/TBF Avenger combination, even after equiped with US airpower types in 1943 onwards, the Fleet air arm scored no notable triumphs.
Before that, the Swordfish wad only Taranto as their big moment, dozens of them attacked the Bismarck to no avail, only a lucky shot jammed her propellar, hardly worth giving the beefed up Britain a powerful air unit it didn't have historically.
XinI believe Axis victory IS possible, Germany must now rethink it war, instead of mindlessly attacking in the east and defending with useless infantry in the west, now they must deal with britain with a hostile and EFFECTIVE Russia on it's border, just like the real world.
Guys, the axis lost WWII badly.
The original scenario went way to far in favor of the axis.
Now the Axis must fight an ever growing enemy while desperatly trying to develop advanced weapons (sound familar?) like Jets and Tigers before it's too late.
They now have Bombers in the late war to help, and Japan has a real fighter at game's end, unlike before, and Germany is in the rough spot it was historically.
Britain now can build real forces, and Russia actually will survive, an impossibilty in the past given equal players.
Keep in mind, Britain and the USA can be sea assaulted rather easily, Germany may now consider a surface fleet instead of paratroops and airpower.
You have to ask yourselves whether you want a historical scenario about WWII or a scenario where if the allies win, it would be a miracle, as the orginal one was for MP.
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MagyarCrusader
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Fascist
Jan 1970
time: 21:18
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quote:
Historically, Germany could NOT kick in the door in Russia in December of 41, now they can't here either.
The true reasons for Germany's defeat will quickly become clear, two front war, and they need to address this. |
Then what's the point of playing? They can't do a quick win, which I have no problem with, but they will have no chance at all later on because of production costs. The games will be decided before they even begin, just for the sake of historical accuracy.
quote:
Now the Axis must fight an ever growing enemy while desperatly trying to develop advanced weapons (sound familar?) like Jets and Tigers before it's too late. |
That's not going to be possible, since the Axis governments are fascist and they are competing against democracies with far more resources at their disposal. By the time Germany may research those nice tanks and fighters, the Allies will have gotten their nice tanks and fighters too so it cancel's each other out.
quote:
Britain now can build real forces, and Russia actually will survive, an impossibilty in the past given equal players. |
Again. I have no problem with this. I have a problem with the fact that production standards will dictate the game into a war of attrition with no hope for the axis. I do believe the Allies should have a production bonus over the Axis, which they do, but not so much as to make Axis units cost more.
quote:
You have to ask yourselves whether you want a historical scenario about WWII or a scenario where if the allies win, it would be a miracle, as the orginal one was for MP. |
My opinion. Neither.
In single player I love the scenarios being as historical as possible, meaning if I am Germany I want to lose. But I don't feel this way for multiplayer. I am assuming by you saying historical you mean that the war will progress as closely as it can to the way the war died for real. I am against this for multiplayer. Mulitplayer games are fun because of the variety that isn't there in single player, meaning you have a free thinking human player in place of a monotonous AI. You are taking out the variety in the game by preventing the Axis from achieving a quick victory AND making them at a major disadvantage in the latter half of the war to simulate precise historical accuracy.
But hey that's just my opinion. You guys are free to do what you want. I just know that if I play this scenario I'll be fighting for the King of England or the Comrade of Russia.
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Field Marshal Klesh
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Klesh Marshal Field
Jan 2000
time: 00:18
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I have made changes again. With the help of Henrik I wa able to sort things out to a nice degree.
The Ammunition Plant issue is solved.
The revolting cities issue has been solved without having to move any wonders. Germany still has 'Nuremberg Rallies 1938'. I added some entertainers to the cities in question.
As far as mechanics are concerned, I believe it is all working A-ok. I'm going to upload v5 to the webpage after this post.
I do see Mike's point with the production costs. But also think of this Mike. The Ami's have to ship all thir units into battle. That takes a long time. They are also quite vulnerable all the way across. If Germany can build more production improvements and get a few Industry terrains terraformed they should be able to keep up. It is very tough to knock out those tigers fortified on a river city etc.
If production costs were more simmilar, then the Allies are at a disadvantage because they have to ship their units across the Atlantic which is far more logistically easy then Germany building units in her homeland. If Germany can field Wespe's early on, they sure can knock on the Soviets pretty hard.
If the costs are made the same, then the abilities might as well be the same, because then we still have this historical strictness based on the actual qualities of the historical vehicles. I dont think anyone would agree that a T-34 is equal to a Churchill tank, or a Sherman for that matter.
So do you think equal costs, but historical stats would be more effective at trying to (somewhat) lead things historically without being too much of a bottleneck. I would prefer a nice balance. I dont want it to be like the Microprose WWII scen (not that I am suggesting you do either).
I think being the Germans in this scen is very risky, just as risky as it was for them IRL to start WWII in the first place.
Playing as the Allies is somewhat easier because all 3 of you can grind on the Germans and help each other (as it was IRL) and also your production abilities are superior (again pretty realistic). But if the Germans step into high gear with production early(unlike waiting till '43 as they did), then they should be ablt to fight the allies on an even keel. All the while, the Japanese are nipping at the heels of the British and certainly threatening the American west coast.
Thinking back on past games, I never recall the Americans ever getting to Europe to fight at all. Playing the game in SP as the Ami's, I always took forever to build up a sufficient army worth invading Europe with. The AI germans always had enough Tigers at bay to mess with me.
Now we have a functioning version *as far as I can tell*, so only playing this thing will the qualities reveal themselves to be good or bad.
Keep this discussion going though, we are hashing out alot of good things here.
-FMK.
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Chris 62
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But I'm feeling MUCH better now
Jan 2001
time: 00:18
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I have been considering this, is there any reason they must be democracys?
Hear me out here, what if we gave them Communism, and renamed that "wartime government" or something along those lines, it would free up the US happy problems, increse production, would hurt the economy and research a bit, but it would certainly be historical, the WWII govs were dictorial in their practical applications.
You can then try giving them "Hitler youth movement", which we could call "Hollywood goes to war", and it's discription could be:
"Hollywood produced a large number of propaganda films in WWII, that helped raise money through war bonds, and helped stiffen the resolve of the American people".
For Germany, how about it's infantry only be the same cost as British infantry?
That way, Germany could build cheap units fast for defense.
Case
I agree that the fleet air arm accomplished things in WWII, but we have to draw the line somewhere, they can make the Lancaster and now the Meteor, they don't need the naval strike AC (which is what i call it).
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