22-03-2002 00:08									#1
	Troops - stack or not? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I know the game book recommends against stacking troops in a square because if the defender loses, all others take collateral damage.

But if I spread them out, then the attackers get to choose who's weak and take them out one at a time.

For example, my artillery units have no armor since they were never meant to be up close anyway. But I can't fire from offshore since they're not amphibious. So how do I make a beachhead?

Overall, what's the best strategy? United we stand or divide and conquer?

	22-03-2002 00:33									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Like everything else in this game: it depends.

If you are technologically superior, then I tend to stack, with defenders so that the enemy can't easily kill any of my units. Humans in MP games often have to resort to PBs to kill these "super stacks"

Some of the components might be:
1. penetrator on top(not interceptor) so that attackers must have sam ability(use a penetrator so that your AAA infantry will defend against sam air attack);

2. AAA infantry;

3. ECM and/or pulse infantry;

4. Trance and/or resonance infanty;

5. Artillery;

6. Worm, or preferably LOC;

7. Attacking units.

If not technologically ahead, but you have a great numbers advantage, then spread out a bit more, take some losses, and move in with the survivours. It's not as pretty, but IMHO, we should all use it more.

On the beachhead:

I find a great way to make a beachhead is to use a penetrator CP, or a rover CP. Often you can find a convienient sensor 2 squares from an enemy base. Walk up with your transport, make your base and park your units in it(save a move of the transport, so it can move in, preserving the move of all your units). This works really great if you have auto perimiter defenses(Hive of CDF), and auto areospace(CA). Note: your enemies Areospace complex 2 square radius will extend over your base so you will have to drop beside it, take damage, and then move in. Alteratively you can maybe find a sensor 3 tiles away without drop coverage(not likely in MP). Make sure you bring a unit or two that you can scrap to hurry those 1st critical builds. (areospace or perim if nesc, otherwise command center, tachyon, or that unit that you just realized you needed now.)

Without the CA and perim defenses, you might be better off to bring a bunch of formers and make a bunker or airbase, but I find even then, making a base much easier.

bc

	22-03-2002 00:53									#3
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Heh. But a bunker can't be mind controlled.

	22-03-2002 02:31									#4
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Mongoose has alluded to a very important point. (Only I believe in his example he is speaking towards mind controlling the beach head base as opposed to individual units.)

Single units are ripe for mind control while stacks are not. So, assuming you are playing SMAC (not SMAX) if you have the hunterseeker SP or are running a high enough probe rating, this is not an issue. If you aren't and say you are invading ohh say Morgan who has tons of energy and a few probe teams. Your asking for trouble having singlies laying around.

Og

	22-03-2002 04:45									#5
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quote: Originally posted by big_canuk If not technologically ahead, but you have a great numbers advantage, then spread out a bit more, take some losses, and move in with the survivours. It's not as pretty, but IMHO, we should all use it more.

Italics added.

Thanks guys. Yes, probe defense is one of the extra "layers" of this game that makes it the best. I should have been more specific and added in stacks of at least 2 units. Actually 4 units is better from a strict probe defense point of view, because when the 3rd unit is destroyed, the 4th will die as well.

In the field the superstack does not need probes, and for multiple small expendible stacks they are questionable as defensive units (Though great for offensive mind controlling, and solving ZOC block problems, especially pre D:AP).

However, probe defense for mind control of bases is an absolute nescessity. The only exception may be empty bases in an in-between no-mans-land, and then only if you have no tech to loose.

If you invade my land, and especially if you are threatening a break-out, I will do whatever it takes, to mind-control(sell facilities, or beg, borrow, or steal). So therefore, on attack, always bring *plenty* of probes, or have the HSA. Note that in a break-out, you will very quickly need many additional probes, and police/garrison units.

Oh, I just love this game.

bc

	22-03-2002 14:57									#6
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quote: stacks of at least 2 units

now, we're all waiting to see a one-unit "stack"!

	22-03-2002 19:34									#7
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Hey, MariO:

Good to have you back! I heard you were "out of commission" for a little while. It's just the beginning of problems for us old codgers, I guess.

Eventually these youngsters may be able to beat us... when we are dead and buried.

bc

	23-03-2002 09:41									#8
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by MariOne now, we're all waiting to see a one-unit "stack"!

Prehaps it's be (unrepressed) programmer in me but I dont find the concept of a one unit stack all that odd

	04-04-2002 08:28									#9
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re the one unit stack



I generally stack for probe defense but if that is not an issue then I might just swarm with singles-- for example a rover rush when I have no good armour anyway and the start is to swarm the enemy with numbers -- you accept your losses but only allow one unit at a time to get damaged in any single attack.

	04-04-2002 21:16									#10
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Thanks Flubber.

Yes, the concept of how much to stack, depends on what kind of odds any attacker has at killing a unit in your stack. All he has to do, is kill one, and all the rest suffer damage, unless in a bunker.

So if you have a really big stack, it might be worth it to attack it, at only say 2:3 odds, hoping that you will eventually get lucky and kill a unit. If odds are closer to even then of course, spread out.

This is one of the reasons defenders *must* have sam rovers, or infantry. It is almost impossible to get good odds against a stack with a penetrator on top, otherwise.

It is also a caution on using artillery in the stack, and a reason to have it defensively. Artillery is attack strenght versus attack strength. Therefore unless you have the high ground and/or superior tech, then you may expect to loose an artillery battle. Especially if he can engage a damaged unit a second or third time.

Of course, you can always add a few rover formers to the stack, to be able to instantly build bunkers, roads, or whatever else you need. A bunker/forest/sensor if it is in your territory, is a very difficult nut to crack(requires elite sam infantry).

I have brought formers along to make roads, but have never had the need to make bunkers. I suppose if you get to much in the stack, then it becomes a PB target. The min balance would be the total of your stack versus the cost of the PB plus 5 centari preserves to reverse the associated ecodamage. Adjusted for any negative diplomatic consequences if the AI is in the game and of course tactical considerations.

	04-04-2002 22:36									#11
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I'm with several of the other folks here. If I go to war, I always form battlegroups, that have a defined duty. My tanks, artillery and foot soldiers all move at once and stay stacked. Each unit is normally unique to its role in combat/defense. I even drag along, an old garrison unit or two with each battle group, to hold cities that I capture. It can be a slow moving group at times, but you can break off your faster units to perform necessary tasks and always have them regroup with the slow moving column at your lesiure. I also usually lead these groups with a deep radar scout rover, to let me know if stray enemy units are nearby. Of course if you're in closer proximity to your own cities/airbases you can always call in airstrikes to clear your path. (In other words, the classical blitzkrieg strategy! Where your fast units can break off from the main force, pierce enemy territory, exploit defensive gaps, widen them and allow the artillery and infantry through to their objective. While at the same time, having a safe defensive "base" for the fast units to return to if things get "too hot". This typically will play hell on the AI factions airforces, who dont seem to learn that attacking your stack with air only accomplishes nothing but the loss of their air units! LOL). I know this sounds corny but I also have developed rover and tank transports to carry armorless units such as standard artillery to battle and have them available to rapidly move damaged units out of a battle area and potentially save them from destruction.
My own strategy takes quite some time to get the proper units together, but they are a tough "nut" to crack by the opponent.

Cheers

Tim

	05-04-2002 00:42									#12
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TIMBTOO,

Interesting your approach. I see you look at tank and rover transports for some utility. You may want to rethink the choice of chassis. Tanks come pretty late inthe game so by that time normally folks look at chop and drop operations. Rovers are there early but to put a transport module onit is:

1) expensive in terms of mins and
2) doesn't buy you anything over an infantry based transport.

I agree, I like land transports and have written some stuff over at www.civgaming.net extolling there virtues.

The rover transport unit unfortunately still only yields you a 1 movement unit (unload a rover out of it and you got a range of 3 for your attacking unit). Same for the infantry transport and additionally are much cheaper.

Anyway give them a try and see if they work for you.

Og

	05-04-2002 00:52									#13
	Support Apolyton

Thanks for the link.... will do!
Btw... would you be so kind as to have a look at the thread I have going under creations, and give me your two cents worth if ya can?

Thanks

Tim

	05-04-2002 01:27									#14
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

TimBtoo,

Checked the creation thread and unfortunately my modding skills are next to nonexistant. Would give you help if I could.

Og

	05-04-2002 03:44									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Timbtoo I also have developed rover and tank transports to carry armorless units such as standard artillery to battle and have them available to rapidly move damaged units out of a battle area and potentially save them from destruction.

Reminds me of the time I built a Submarine Cruiser Transport. I had Nanofactories, so I chose the ability to heal units while they were being transported.
Because they had a decent move (6), I had them on standby nearby, and darted them in to extract damaged units on land, then with at least one move remaining, submerged, as it were, to hide them from enemy detection.

It's too bad that lightning war against the AI Hive ended abruptly with a Truce, so I didn't get a chance to see how well it worked.

	05-04-2002 03:51									#16
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Grail Quest:

Ouch, it wouldn't have worked *at all*.

Not your fault though, it is a *great* idea. It's just you have stumbled upon two bugs.

The first is that the transport repair bay is broken. It does not work. I have not confirmed this myself, as I read it may times in threads, therefore have never built one.

The submarine special ability, does work against human opponents in MP. However, it does not work against the AI. They still know exactly where your units are, and if in range might sink them.

Too bad. Those are two nifty special abilities.

bc

	05-04-2002 04:45									#17
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Whats peoples opions on self-destructing conventional missiles? This causes all units adjacant to the missile to die, regardless of armour, reactor and other stats. It's the ultimate low-cost solution to destroying both stacks and swarms.

	05-04-2002 05:12									#18
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Choppers are better. Cheaper and have a greater effective range, as long as you don't get caught between turns. Any unit will do in a pinch. I once took out >80 Usurper Needlejets in SP by self destructing two or three impact tacticals.

Pagan and I got a rather large invasion force of JAMiAM's that way in MP once, too.

	05-04-2002 05:21									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Blake Whats peoples opions on self-destructing conventional missiles? This causes all units adjacant to the missile to die, regardless of armour, reactor and other stats. It's the ultimate low-cost solution to destroying both stacks and swarms.

Actually how about a conventional missile with a chemical warhead, which does damage to all units within a certain radius (upwind less damage, downwind more damage).
Also, getting back to stacks, specifically how I am currently observing the AI to stack units: I'm in a game now where the AI is sending wave after wave of infantry against my city. I've got speeders in the base, and am just knocking them out as fast as they can get up to the base. Now here's the catch: the AI has a choice of putting its troops in a rocky square or a flat earth square when coazying its troops up close to my base for the next turn's attack. Invariably the AI chooses the flat earth square, meaning my speeders get the open ground attack bonus, and the defenders get moot for a defensive bonus! After 2 of my speeders attack the stack, there is nothing left of the stack, thus letting my other speeders rest and heal for the next wave of attackers the following turn. I think that it was poor programming to have the AI select as a known defensive position the poorer of the 2 locations.
IMO regarding my use of stacks: read the terrain, know the enemies strengths and tendencies, gamble if necessary, and stack (or don't) accordingly.

D

	05-04-2002 09:16									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Whats twice as bad (IMO) is when the AI enters a forest tile adjacant to your base, then pillages it into a nice flat tile. This is such the wrong thing to do on several counts:
It converts a +50% defense bonus to a -25% defense penalty (vs rovers).
The unit could have attacked instead of pillaged, possibly taking the base.
If it did take the base, the base could have then worked the forest tile.