24-03-2002 06:18									#1
	War vs. Probes Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I'm playing single-player.

The Hive is flanked by me (University) on the West and Datajacks on the right. They've been fighting the Datajacks so long that it seems neither faction is expanding.

I stacked up a small army of 7 units with superior tech, and launch what I hoped to be a BlitzKrieg to snatch a Hive base. I get to the doorstep, but the Hive starts massing forces into that one base. I've lost my useless mind worms and spore launchers even though I'm sitting in Xenofungus. The other units are damaged, but holding ground. I can't get into the base to snatch it! Urgh. This goes on for over 10 turns and I get bored, so I reload back to see if I could have done anything differently.

Second time around, I move some probe teams over while the Treaty with the Hive is in force. I start probing, and check out the cost to Mind Control the bases, and note that they are affordable -- about the same as a few of my infantry units. And I'm close enough to the border that I can snatch a base with a Probe Team without exposing any Probe Teams to attack (distance to base can be covered inside of 1 Turn).

So... my question is: if you have Probe Teams, and if the enemy is vulnerable to Probes, why bother massing an army for conquest? A strong Probe Team can do Total Mind Control and not even start a Vendetta.

I've decided to Incite some Drone Riots and snatch Hive bases, and have dispersed my infantry to instead Hold new colonies.

	24-03-2002 10:18									#2
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Depends. If the cost to mind control is afoordable, and the defenses are too strong to crack easily, use Mind Control. However, you can't do that to a faction HQ, and bases nearby are very expensive. You can't Mind Control anyone with a +3 PROBe rating either. Generally, I use Mind Control on bases that I can't take conventionally, as once my army is built, there's no added cost to using it unless units get destroyed.

	24-03-2002 12:24									#3
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If you're having a lot of energy and I do mean a lot of energy then you can use Probes to invade enemies. I have done this few times when playing Morgans. But it really takes a lot of credits to do Blitzkrieg with Probes only. Often not possible in MP anyway. In SP however it's very effective since enemy's anti-probe defense is usually inadequate. Probes are pretty good at snatching few bases from enemy before the conventional assault. It can be incredibly tedious to take those first bases if you have to land your forces to their shore and can't use air power.

	25-03-2002 02:52									#4
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Also, probes have no armor, and as such are extremely vulnerable to almost any direct attack. I tend not to use them as much as some players, only for disruption, saving the real battles and assaults on cities for conventional combat units.

	25-03-2002 07:15									#5
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Probes can be given armour if you want them to have it.

	25-03-2002 08:24									#6
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About the best use of Probe mind controlling is taking back captured cities, this is usually reasonably cheap, causes minimal (additional) damage to your facilities and you get the enemies conquest force to boot.

They are also useful for capturing small fringe bases (which may often be quite well stocked with military units).

	26-03-2002 13:42									#7
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I stopped playing this game a year ago, (yet if this game had no flaws, it could be may favorite pc game of all time) and i'll tell u a nasty strategy that i used vs. computers: In one game (transcent level) i played morgans, and after 150 turns only me and Hive remained. Hive had about 65% of lands, but i owned most of the secrets.

Now to the main point: Each time Hive declared war to me i brived his weakest (or cheapest) city. Then Hive meets me to tell that he wants his city back for exchange of truce (in the same turn). This happens every turn, and in this way i managed to hold his vast army, and won the game by building acent trancendent secret.

	28-03-2002 02:19									#8
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quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus . . . use Mind Control. However, you can't do that to a faction HQ, and bases nearby are very expensive. . .

Is that true about nearby (to enemy HQ) bases being more expensive to mind control (all else presumably being equal)?

Is there a discussion somewhere with the rest of the mind control cost parameters spelled out?

For example, these tactical questions come to mind:
- Is it worth it to incite drone riots first, or doesn't it matter?
- Is it worth it to take a few pot shots with artie first, or doesn't it matter?
- Is it worth it to kill a defender or two first, or doesn't it matter?
- Is it worth it to sabotage a facility or two first, or doesn't it matter?
- Is it worth it to destroy some terraforming first, or doesn't it matter?
. . . and so forth; the questions relate to whether or not the possible actions would make the mind control cheaper or more likely to succeed.

Regarding MP etiquette, what, it anything, is supposed to happen if someone performs a total mind control versus a regular mind control of another human player's base. Obviously, the original owner would notice that his base now belonged to you in any case, but would they receive any information about what happened and if so, would it differ depending on which kind of mind control it was? Also, how does the probe notification bug (where the prober gets the question of whether or not to declard vendetta instead of the victim) interact with this; i.e. is it possible to have an undetected total mind control over another human player and how would you know and what is the victim supposed to do, pretend that he never had that base?

	28-03-2002 02:40									#9
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I think some of the modifiers for Mind Control cost are distance to HQ, number of garrison units and enemy Probe rating.

	28-03-2002 22:42									#10
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quote: Originally posted by johndmuller - Is it worth it to incite drone riots first, or doesn't it matter? - Is it worth it to kill a defender or two first, or doesn't it matter? - Is it worth it to sabotage a facility or two first, or doesn't it matter?

I've had as many as three Probe Teams hit a base at the same time. Two incited drone riots successfully and the third tried MC, but the cost did not go down.

I've seen bases with Population 1, no facilities and no garrison, and it still costs about 700 to mind control. I think it was the Drones that time. Even if they have good Morale or Probe ratings, I think that's still ridiculous. If I move a single military unit into the base, it's annihilated. So why can't I MC it cheaply?

	28-03-2002 23:43									#11
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quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus I think some of the modifiers for Mind Control cost are distance to HQ, number of garrison units and enemy Probe rating.

Hmm i think the prove morale only affects the chance of success but it doesn't make MC cost cheaper............ Also the efficiency of the base (when calculating the cost of distance from the headquaters) also counts..........that means its more expensive to MC a gaian city compared to a Hive city that has the same distance, pop. I really dont know if the garrison units and city improvements makes the MC of a city more expensive........

Perphaps Vel should tell us how this MC works

	29-03-2002 13:04									#12
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quote: Regarding MP etiquette...

There has been some discussion over this but I don't remember if consensus was reached. It's often a standard procedure that when you commit a probe offense you immediately declare vendetta, because of the bug. Although I'm not very convinced by Total MC anyway. I know what the difference is suppose to be. But is there any? I remember faction declaring vendetta even when I used Total MC.

quote: ...and it still costs about 700 to mind control...

It doesn't seem to make much sense. But still probes have their advantages vs conventional units. Conventional units often take support, require more minerals thus take more time and/or energy to build, you need to update them to keep them functional and they might cause you problems if you have a low Police rating. So, people tend to underestimate the expenses of conventional warfare, it's often pretty expensive. Probes are simple, easy and cheap to build. The mind control takes some capital but it's not necessarily much more expensive than building an invaison army. Probes are a valid option for wealthy factions, at least, versus AI.

	30-03-2002 07:41									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Grail Quest ... If I move a single military unit into the base, it's annihilated. So why can't I MC it cheaply?

quote: ... never forget that, with children present, parents will defend their home to the death.

	04-04-2002 08:23									#14
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Energy reserves of the probee also seems to be a factor since the probe cost seems to be a function of

the base size to be probed as a fraction of the entire population
energy reserves
distance to HQ
probe rating


As for MP etiquette, I never saw the point of using the total mind control option since a human will ALWAYS know you took the base even if game parameters would not require an auto vendetta in that case IMHO.

	12-04-2002 02:02									#15
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True enough, and you better be prepared when it happens.

DAve

	12-04-2002 07:53									#16
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Wouldn't it be really nasty if you could MC a base in PBEM/hotseat and then gift it to a third party?

	12-04-2002 08:54									#17
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick Wouldn't it be really nasty if you could MC a base in PBEM/hotseat and then gift it to a third party?

A similar situation happened to me in a recent H2H game. I had dug in at my AI allies base, knowing full well that, with the current technology employed on Planet, I could defend this position for the forseeable future. Next turn, the base had changed hands to an unfriendly AI faction! When I queried my opponent, he stated that he had demanded the base from my AI ally, then gifted it to my AI enemy!

Here is the thread over at Civgaming concerning this:

http://www.civgaming.net/forums/sho...s=&threadid=877

	12-04-2002 09:02									#18
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AI intervention in a pbem can really screw up the works!

	13-04-2002 02:11									#19
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quote: Originally posted by johndmuller 1) Is it worth it to incite drone riots first, or doesn't it matter? 2) Is it worth it to take a few pot shots with artie first, or doesn't it matter? 3) Is it worth it to kill a defender or two first, or doesn't it matter? 4) Is it worth it to sabotage a facility or two first, or doesn't it matter? 5) Is it worth it to destroy some terraforming first, or doesn't it matter?

Disclaimer: I'm pretty sure what follows is correct, but if you want to be sure open the Scenario Editor and do some test.

1) Yes, drone riots in a base reduce the cost by about 1/2. If you want this to work though, plan to send more than one probe, because in all likelyhood the player, and definately the AI, will have halted the drone riots on the following round. The AI will starve it's citizens rather than face drone riots (which you can use to your benefit).

2) *shrugs* I don't think so, but possibly the cost of a unit goes down if you damage the unit first. See 3 below.

3) Yes, as part of the cost to control the base is the cost of the units inside it. I personally believe (but have not tested) that the cost of units you get control of that ware adjacent to the base is not included in this cost.

4) Yes, as part of the cost is the facilities included in the base.

5) No, I don't think terraforming affects it.

A question you should also have asked: Does it help to target an enemy with a low SE Probe rating? Yes, because part of the cost is determined by their SE rating. I don't know (actually more like can't remember) if your SE Probe rating affects the cost though.

As far as efficiency (and/or distance from headquarters), I couldn't say.