 |
| |
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
axi
|
 |
Athens Greece
Sep 1999
time: 07:18
|
|
quote:
let's take farmers.
they earn huge from the EU. They have villas build with subsidy money and they were given years to change their crops to something else due to the overproduction of goods.
They went out on the streets why? for what reason? to build 2 villas? give me a fooking break. and the communist party delights in exciting people like them. it really does. and all it does is creating trouble on the streets and on the economy.
in that respect and since it was obvious that the population does not condone the farmers "demands" they were forcefully evicted from the capital. |
Not all farmers are the same. There are big farmers, who declare to the authorities more production than they have and suck the subsidy coffers dry. There are small family farmers who struggle to make a decent living and send their kids to a university. There are earth laborers, chiefly immigrants who are overworked and underpayed. A few years ago, it was customary to provide the Albanian illegal immigrants with just their food and water for the day, plus some old piece of clothing for charity. The big farmers are not the people whose rights the left (be it the Communist Party or anyone else) is trying to express - those are expressed by the agrosyndicalists of the right (Nea Dimokratia) who are demanding extremely different amendments in the legislation than the big farmers do. It was the poor farmers who manned the roadblocks, it was them who demonstrated in Athens and were beaten up by the riot police. It was the big farmers however who, under the instructions of ND backed off and let the govt off the hook (plus the maintenance of the subsidy status for tobacco by the EU).
The whole EU agricultural subsidy system is stupid, counterproductive and rotten to the ground. It is created to maintain the European agricultural production against a world competition of cheapo agricultural products, while OTOH it artificially limits this production, in order to keep the prices high enough to make the thing profitable. I am really unable to understand this system.
quote:
as to if measures are being taken to hold demos in secluded areas:I don't know. we still ask what is the demonstration to day?
so that's how people feel. they don't even know who is protesting. all they know is that they have to endure one more martyrdome inside their cars.
But keep in mind. Left wing Greek youth is fearsome and fearless. To mess them up means to pay a price.
In all honesty Greeks are very difficult to govern. They simple don;t like it. And they distrust any governemt. Greece is the opposite of Scandinavia in this respect.
But I still can't see what wrong would come out of breaking up and not giving alisence to every body who wants to have a demo of 100 people.
I am all for that changing. |
People do not know "who is demonstrating today" because the media purposefully bury the news for all demonstrations and strikes. Even when they do inform the public, they just say that "hospitals will be closed tomorrow, doctors are on strike" or "centre is out of bounds tomorrow due to student demonstration". Well, guess what, a demo or a strike are more than just another convenience information to the public (to the tune of "airport will be closed due to bad weather"), these are political events which have a reason to exist and a grudge to lay forward to society. When I am informed that the doctors are on stike, I want to know WHY they are on strike and what the govt does about their demands - only then can I express my support or non-support to them. So the last ones to blame for the angry and complaining civilians are the strikers and the demonstrators themselves. Of course, if the media were as sensitive of such issues as they should be, no govt would stay in power for long.
As for demonstration permits, no group of people should need a permit to demonstrate. Informing the police so that traffic measures are effected is another issue, but asking the state to permit you to use one of your basic rights is out of the question. Did you know paiktis, that the police restricting a pedestrian to walk on a certain street is violating the constitution? Yet you should see the way they had blocked the streets around the Polytechneion in 17 November, when I had to ask my way around 4 police roadblocks to get access to the premises, just before the demo (obviously that was a tactic used to obstruct and intimidate the people concentrating).
Anti-demonstration legislation was actually created, but it has not been effected yet. I am afraid that we will see many such legal tools in the hands of the police, next time there is a big event (see thessaloniki 2003 and the 2004 Olympics).
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Bereta_Eder
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by axi
Not all farmers are the same. There are big farmers, who declare to the authorities more production than they have and suck the subsidy coffers dry. There are small family farmers who struggle to make a decent living and send their kids to a university. There are earth laborers, chiefly immigrants who are overworked and underpayed. A few years ago, it was customary to provide the Albanian illegal immigrants with just their food and water for the day, plus some old piece of clothing for charity. The big farmers are not the people whose rights the left (be it the Communist Party or anyone else) is trying to express - those are expressed by the agrosyndicalists of the right (Nea Dimokratia) who are demanding extremely different amendments in the legislation than the big farmers do. It was the poor farmers who manned the roadblocks, it was them who demonstrated in Athens and were beaten up by the riot police. It was the big farmers however who, under the instructions of ND backed off and let the govt off the hook (plus the maintenance of the subsidy status for tobacco by the EU). |
ALL the farmers are subject to the same legislation. All farmers get subsidies for their crops. Small as well as big. All of them had time to change their crops to something else. And most of them exagerate their production so they get more subsidies.
quote:
The whole EU agricultural subsidy system is stupid, counterproductive and rotten to the ground. It is created to maintain the European agricultural production against a world competition of cheapo agricultural products, while OTOH it artificially limits this production, in order to keep the prices high enough to make the thing profitable. I am really unable to understand this system. |
Many share your opinion and I do too. This system was developped so that the European Community had self suficiency in food products. The problem is that it worked too well. Now we have overproduction and we don't know what to do with it hence the half measures. So things have to change.
quote:
People do not know "who is demonstrating today" because the media purposefully bury the news for all demonstrations and strikes. Even when they do inform the public, they just say that "hospitals will be closed tomorrow, doctors are on strike" or "centre is out of bounds tomorrow due to student demonstration". |
Newspapers do write about that. Chanels don't air it because it is not newsworthy.
When the people got out for the pensions reform everybody aired it. And all opinions were heard. When 100 people go out for something that is not concrete it is not aired. People don't want to know the positions of an extra-parliamentary left wing and its ideas that frankly sometimes are out of touch with reality. They want to know how much they'll have to wait in traffic and what to avoid.
quote:
Well, guess what, a demo or a strike are more than just another convenience information to the public (to the tune of "airport will be closed due to bad weather"), these are political events which have a reason to exist and a grudge to lay forward to society. When I am informed that the doctors are on stike, I want to know WHY they are on strike and what the govt does about their demands - only then can I express my support or non-support to them. So the last ones to blame for the angry and complaining civilians are the strikers and the demonstrators themselves. Of course, if the media were as sensitive of such issues as they should be, no govt would stay in power for long. |
See it this way. In a march you walk for say 1 hour and it's all over. All you leave behind are pissed off drivers and the only ones you reach are those who happen to pass by. And most will try to avoid it so they go about their business faster.
In a big plaza you can hang around for hours, from morning to sunset distributing pamhlets and reaching the thousands of people who will pass through. Even a big sign with one central message will be viewed many more times that if it was a 1 hour march. Meanwhile you don't anger the population at all. And your views are passed on.Remember you are talking to someone who reads Babel for Christ' sake  "Fatherland, religion,family" make me puke just listening to that slogan I'm not saying go home and do nothing. Just prioritize the emergency of each protest and treat it accordingly. If you know that thousands of people will come to the streets, do it. If only 100 will stop the traffic I think that it is counterproductive.
quote:
Yet you should see the way they had blocked the streets around the Polytechneion in 17 November, when I had to ask my way around 4 police roadblocks to get access to the premises, just before the demo (obviously that was a tactic used to obstruct and intimidate the people concentrating). |
I've been to the 17 November marches in my younger days. I had no problem what so ever in reaching the american embassy. I was not intimidated by police. We marched in peace.
The real danger is the attempt to generate them into mindless riots. The team of self - guard of the demonstrators did a good job the last time. Maybe they are agent provocateurs but also so called anarchists.
It has to be a peaceful march or it will degenerate.
quote:
Anti-demonstration legislation was actually created, but it has not been effected yet. I am afraid that we will see many such legal tools in the hands of the police, next time there is a big event (see thessaloniki 2003 and the 2004 Olympics). |
I believe that society will vomit like poison laws that go beyond what is popularily acceptable. Again it has to do with how many people go to the marches.
The sad reality is that people don't know and only care about what affects them directly. Pensions, social security, taxes etc.
Inform the people, yes, but taking into account their everyday needs too.
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
axi
|
|
Athens Greece
Sep 1999
time: 07:18
|
|
It's called threadjacking.... 
On the 17N demo, I wrote they they obstructed the people to get to the rally point in front of the Polytechneion, not that they obstructed the march to go to the embassy.
What I like about this demo is that we always get to be in front (the Polytechneion students are the 1st block and this year I got to hold one side of the central banner half way) so we get to give the pace. When KNE is in front in demos, they tend to evolve in a race, because they want to get over with it quickly. However we march really slow and stop alot, because we want to make the demo felt to the public. This time we were so slow, that the oldtimers (relatives of the victims who march ahead) came back to us asking to get going.
As for rallies in squares and such, we have done alot of that too, but these actions tend to get less publicity.
On the derby: I have seen the footage at least 40 times on Sunday and Monday. I saw the game on tape too. The referee was definitely whistling against PAO, but not to the extent Fillipidis claims. It got really bad at the end, with quite a few reverse fouls.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Bereta_Eder
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by axi
On the 17N demo, I wrote they they obstructed the people to get to the rally point in front of the Polytechneion, not that they obstructed the march to go to the embassy. |
They did not really "obstruct" as I understood it. They were large riot police forces statiioned and you had to zig-zag them I think...
You are in the most honored faculty in regard with the smashing of the dictatorship but unfortunately now this very historic faculty is becoming a source of problems that go against the spirit of the demo.
The academic sanctuary cannot be used by the so called anarchists. They create a base in Polytechneion where they can do what they please with immunity.
They have nothing to do with you, the students, yet they paint with black colors the whole march. Although I THINK that you took some measures of blocking their access into the Polytechneion grounds lately...
quote:
What I like about this demo is that we always get to be in front (the Polytechneion students are the 1st block and this year I got to hold one side of the central banner half way) so we get to give the pace. When KNE is in front in demos, they tend to evolve in a race, because they want to get over with it quickly. However we march really slow and stop alot, because we want to make the demo felt to the public. This time we were so slow, that the oldtimers (relatives of the victims who march ahead) came back to us asking to get going. |
17 November is THE day of marches
quote:
As for rallies in squares and such, we have done alot of that too, but these actions tend to get less publicity. |
From the media, I'd say the same as the small street marches (=zero ) Yet you reach more people and you don't piss off the rest
quote:
On the derby: I have seen the footage at least 40 times on Sunday and Monday. I saw the game on tape too. The referee was definitely whistling against PAO, but not to the extent Fillipidis claims. It got really bad at the end, with quite a few reverse fouls. |
Whatever we were good respresentatives of the Zulu tribes 
3 Greek teams in Europe the same as all th ebig countries of the continent and yet at home this disgrace keeps on going.
The brits had the same problem and they solved it. (no entrance to known hooligans etc) But when the hooligans are the club's leaders themselves...
Last edited by Bereta_Eder on 28-03-2002 at 18:07
|
|
| |
|
|
|
axi
|
|
Athens Greece
Sep 1999
time: 07:18
|
|
Paiktis, how can you be quoting yourself?
quote:
They did not really "obstruct" as I understood it. They were large riot police forces statiioned and you had to zig-zag them I think... |
No, you think wrong. I was on Patission, coming from ASOEE, where my bus had stopped. They had cordonned off Patision just after Ioulianou str IIRC. A platton of blues with hats was standing on the sidewalk. I tried to go past them on the sidwalk. They said no you can't. I said why, orders they said. How can I go to Polytechneion? Go around. I went down Ioulianou and turned at 3rd September av. On the next corner, the same thing. I went on to Marnis str, there were two platoons and again they told me that I was not to pass from there. By then I was really pissed off, because they were not giving a reason why I as a pedestrian could not pass. I was not the only pedestrian frustrated by this. When I insisted to ask for a reason why, they threatened to arrest me. I went to Averov street, which is a small walkway that leads face to Polytechneion from 3rd Sept. av. and that was clear. The Polytechneion was blocked on it's northern semicircle only, for some mysterios reason.
I had never seen such an attitude before that, even when Putin or the Patriarch had come to the city and I had to cross the areas cordoned off. Then the cops were always quarelling with drivers, but pedestrians could go wherever they wanted.
quote:
And something else. The Polytechneion is also a storage for some very important and unique historical documents. Many of these were destroyed last time. If the students cannot safe guard the premises then the academic sanctuary becomes a problem for property.... (and such arguments can and will be used against you in a court of law - for temporary removal of said sanctuary at 17 November. |
They say that the Prytaneia caught fire in 1995 because of the bonfires that were lit in order to deal with the tear gas that was pouring from outside. They say that the police is partially to blame for this. As for the various relics, now they are all kept in various places in Zografou.
|
|
| |
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:18.
Apolyton Time is 00:18. |
top of page
|
| archivepost |
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
25-03-2002 20:58
Back to nature baby!
|