25-03-2002 03:36									#1
	World War II scenario Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I am working on a WWII scenario and i'd like some help and suggestions. The map i am using is Aanar's europe map, and using the multitool save game editor to create edit the game appropriately. for those that know the map, i am mostly placing cities according to the wheat locations on the map, but i am adding other cities for balance and historical purposes. my first attempt will have the player play as germany. I have one scenario so far that i am working on: one just before the poland invasion, but i'm not sure if i should do this, or go with the style in the civII scenario
given, it wont be at the level of the civ II scen., but it should get the feel across. if someone can recommend a good wwii modpack, that would be great. any suggestions on how to edit diplomacy? so far in the game i have to declare war on all the allied powers, and try my best to ally with italy (should italy be under the player's control?) and the axis minor powers. the scenario will be a save game, of coarse. i dont know aht difficulty to set it at, but that can be change easily with the multi tool. the player will not be required to play germany as well, with the help of the tcg editor.
give me lots of suggestions, i will post my first version of the scenario next week perhaps.

	26-03-2002 06:12									#2
	suggestions Support Apolyton

Make sure Japan is a major power in the game. Most people leave Japan out of the game. Also, by including Japan you've greatly increased the importance of the naval units. I played a WWII scenario were Japan was an insignificant nothing. This gave Russia an advantage with the USSR having to fight on only one front.

Another suggestion I would have would be, depending on the year, to focus each civilization on the strengths and weaknesses they had. The US was economically strong, yet militarily weak, etc.

	28-03-2002 00:40									#3
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Wait until we have a scenario editor

	30-03-2002 10:22									#4
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It probably wont be great

	30-03-2002 13:43									#5
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Until we have dive bombers and other carrier-based planes, and until bombers can sink warships, there is no point in a WW II scenario - even though is no way we can make a scenario as yet without a scenario-builder.

	31-03-2002 04:20									#6
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I'll keep playing Close Combat until they release a scenario editor.

	03-04-2002 14:44									#7
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Thanks all. I will create a good map and everything and design the different civilisations now. When the scenario editor is released, i should be able to combine my completed work with all of the element allowed with it. Multi tool is useful, but ended up causing too many crashes when i edited the cities, so i guess we'll have to wait for the editor (which had better be coming soon!).

	03-04-2002 17:48									#8
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The best way to direct efforts for a WWII scenario for the moment would be to work on the units, improvements, leader heads, wonders and sounds ect... There are some units already posted, but I think there are still some gaps to be filled.
I am working on;

The T34 (the only one I have posted any thing of yet, check it out, its the one with the, um, 'snow')

A couple of mobile infantry units (for use with all the major powers, A general truck and an armoured car. This is not the same as mechanized infantry and is sorely missing).

The KV1 (russian heavy tank) and the Churchil/crocodile (british tank) I need to find bluprints of these two first to get the rigt mesurements fo my 3d model.

I will not be making the american tanks cos they look silly and performed badly.

	04-04-2002 16:42									#9
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Does it seem right to make tundra have a two movement requirement for units to move on? I was thinking that it would be good to represent how the Germans were slowed and halted partially due to the Russian winter, but it would the snow can't just appear seasonally. This would make it tough to invade the USSR through the whole game, and might ruin a bit of the gameplay.
As for air units, which power had the best planes in their airforce? The American and German motors were quite excellent, though the Germans took an bit too much time making their engines perfect. The British performed well in the Battle of Britain, but this was due much to radar and the fact that the luftwaffe was low on fuel by the time they reached the isles. If anyone has a good source on comparitive militaries in WWII, that would be good info to share.
As for the map, I was going to use just a Europe map, but the pacific war was very inportant in the second half of the war, and Japan is also an important factor. However, most of the action occurred in the northern hemisphere, so it might be good to drop the southern to eliminate contextually unimportant land. This would drop the interesting factor of a Japanese invasion of Australia, which would give the Japanese aluminum.

	05-04-2002 23:03									#10
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I have been thinking of how a WWII scenario would be designed. I recently made the sugestion of having the Tanks act more like armoured artillery suport, using the bombard action. I think this ultimately would make for very interesting games, but I forgot one important fact; the AI cant use artillery units for any thing else than shooting enemy roads and irigation! it wouldnt be much fun having a dozen Tiger II's running around blowing chunks out of the scenery!
For a good WWII scenario we need an events editor like in CivII, with;
A no diplomacy option, a no government switch option and possibly a city captured or per turn triggered reward system. These were the sort of things that made scenarios in CIV II entertaining and even possible. I can imagine a Civ III scenario where on turn five the germans made peace with the british and switched to a democracy!
The only scenario I can think of that would work is a "what if?" scenario, with a 1936 start date and a chance to change history through a combination of diplomacy, espionage, government switching and military action.

	05-04-2002 23:37									#11
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Constantine, I think tundra could be given a bigger defence bonus to show the problems germany had invading russia. Russia should have a bad,unequiped army at first, and behind in technologies.. later it can research advanced tanks (fast or heavy tanks). It needs to make more money and borrow some from other allies maybe , so russia can upgrade all its riflemen/conscripts to infantrymen for example.

I think you can make a good beginning to a world war game,
just save a game at a good place and make this the scenario.
If you make conditions good enough, the axis shouldn't make peace with everyone.. it won't matter as long as you don't accept peace when playing as the allies, or germans.

There were peace deals in worldwar2 anyhow, like with Vichy france and germany, until germany occupied south france as well.

It would be good to have a worldwide ww2 game, not enough scenarios have been done with the Us/Japan pacific war, which is an interesting one.

Remember to use resources realistically, and in a fun way in a ww2 game.

good luck, maybe i can help a bit

	06-04-2002 16:37									#12
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I'll use the increased defence bonus 100% on the tundra, thanks Admiral (100% may be high, but its the only way for the rifleman to have any chance). Another aspect I may change is river movement. Although I will probably remodle the entire tech tree, I disallowed the bridge-building bonus of engineering. This will simulate the effect of defenders destroying their bridges behind them to slow the advancing enemy.

	07-04-2002 04:09									#13
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If anything, I think the russian tanks should be strong, even in the beginning of the war. I mean the Russian tanks slaughtered the German tanks to begin with (as did the british and french). The first two series and most of the third of Panzer tanks were light and fast, without any greater caliber cannons, whereas the Russians had heavy tanks such as the KV-1 and KV-2 and well balanced tanks such as the T-34, which cannons easily penetrated the weak German armor. Early German success were of course more due to the preparedness of war, the tactical superiority and the experience (as Stalin had already executed most of his top military officers). Later on the Germans built much heavier tanks with the IV, V and VI series of the Panzer. The Russians had great trouble with these during late '42, and '43, but fitted the T-34 with a 85mm cannon and suddenly the battle were even.

I wish Civ3 had a battle-system similar to the one in Panzer General .

	07-04-2002 21:07									#14
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When did the French tanks slaughter the Panzers? When the Germans invaded France the French had a greater number of tanks (2445 German tanks vs. 3063 French tanks), but were unable to stop the German advances anywhere. This are several reasons for this: the French had their tanks at the Maginot line, their tanks were spread through their infantry devisions, the Stukas in the luftwaffe effectively destroyed French tanks, and the Panzers were a superior tank compared to those of the French. The Russians had very few tanks, so to start, they will have a very limited mechanized armed forces, and the Russian cities will have a poor level of production to insure that they can't produce overwhelming numbers of T-34's too early. I'm also not sure how well the British tanks did against the Germans, as the British didn't fight the Germans on land until late in the war (Dunkirk wasn't a good exhibition of the British armoury). As for American tanks, they will need to be included, silly or not . Russian, British, German, and American tanks were the only really distinctive tank builders, so I will have to make different designs for these civs. Other nations will just have generic tanks (it would be silly to design a dutch tank, seeing as they had 1, that's right 1, tank at the start of the war).

	08-04-2002 02:25									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Constantine When did the French tanks slaughter the Panzers? When the Germans invaded France the French had a greater number of tanks (2445 German tanks vs. 3063 French tanks), but were unable to stop the German advances anywhere. This are several reasons for this: the French had their tanks at the Maginot line, their tanks were spread through their infantry devisions, the Stukas in the luftwaffe effectively destroyed French tanks, and the Panzers were a superior tank compared to those of the French. The Russians had very few tanks, so to start, they will have a very limited mechanized armed forces, and the Russian cities will have a poor level of production to insure that they can't produce overwhelming numbers of T-34's too early. I'm also not sure how well the British tanks did against the Germans, as the British didn't fight the Germans on land until late in the war (Dunkirk wasn't a good exhibition of the British armoury). As for American tanks, they will need to be included, silly or not . Russian, British, German, and American tanks were the only really distinctive tank builders, so I will have to make different designs for these civs. Other nations will just have generic tanks (it would be silly to design a dutch tank, seeing as they had 1, that's right 1, tank at the start of the war).

I was more thinking in terms of tank vs tank battles. Of course there are always other factors that play in, such as some that you pointed out. If you want to represent this by increasing/decreasing tank strenght, it's up to you, but I think that would be up to the player to play those strategies out. Unfortunately it all comes down to how well Civ3 could manage that, since it's far from a battle simulator.

The french tanks were stronger, especially the Char B1 and the S35. However they were not utilized effectively, as you pointed out, and were used in infantry support roles to a too great extent. But in the few cases that they did face off with German tanks on equal terms, they slaughtered the Panzers. As for the numbers you put up about the French having more tanks than the Germans, I cannot confirm or deny, but they sure sound interesting. What exactly would you count as a tank in that case? For the most part, German early Panzers were not even able to penetrate the thick armor of the strong French tanks, unless they flanked (which they did to a great extent).

The British tanks did fight the Germans before Dunkirk and they did have strong tanks in the Matilda's, which was an excellent defensive weapon in the beginning of the war in France (they were "lent" to the French). However, they were few and they too were utilized poorly (of course they did also have some very poor tanks in the Crusiers and the Crusaders). Also, the Germans had a great advantage in the 88mm Flak gun that was way superior to any Allied AT-Gun seen during the entire war.

So the question is, should German superior tactics and experience, as well as air superiority render the Allied tanks attack and defense numbers weaker? But again, maybe this is a little too intricate for Civ3.

I also think the Italians should be counted as "distinctive tank builders" of WW2. Maybe that would be a waste of time to add that to the game, but the Italians did have a good number of own tank designs, although they were useless in battle compared to the Panzers.

	08-04-2002 22:14									#16
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If I am able to do so, I will give the French and British tanks higher attack and defence than the panzer, but give the panzers a more hp's, or experience, to counter their disadvantage. There will be several stages of tank designs, for example, the Germans can start with basic panzers, and then upgrade to the Tiger tank. I will reasearch French, British, American, Italian, and Russian tanks to find what their tanks were like early in the war and later on as technology improved.

	08-04-2002 22:21									#17
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Oh yeah, awsomedude, since you found those numbers interesting, here is a numerical comparison of some of the armed forces of the countries involed in WWII.
Tanks:
Germany-2445
Britain-310
France-3063
Belgium-10
Netherlands-1

Aircraft (fighter, bombers, etc.)
Germany-4020
Britain-1306
France-1368
Belgium-250
Netherlands-175

	09-04-2002 00:40									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Constantine If I am able to do so, I will give the French and British tanks higher attack and defence than the panzer, but give the panzers a more hp's, or experience, to counter their disadvantage. There will be several stages of tank designs, for example, the Germans can start with basic panzers, and then upgrade to the Tiger tank. I will reasearch French, British, American, Italian, and Russian tanks to find what their tanks were like early in the war and later on as technology improved.

Sounds good to me .

	09-04-2002 00:41									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Constantine Oh yeah, awsomedude, since you found those numbers interesting, here is a numerical comparison of some of the armed forces of the countries involed in WWII. Tanks: Germany-2445 Britain-310 France-3063 Belgium-10 Netherlands-1 Aircraft (fighter, bombers, etc.) Germany-4020 Britain-1306 France-1368 Belgium-250 Netherlands-175

Thanks, that is interesting... What would your source be though? Could you post a link, if at all available? This information tells me nothing unless there is a date tagged to it. Would these be numbers from September 1939 or May 1940 or maybe something completely different?

	09-04-2002 00:50									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Admiral PJ It would be good to have a worldwide ww2 game, not enough scenarios have been done with the Us/Japan pacific war, which is an interesting one.

Naval combat in Civ isn't all that great. Things like marines, paratroopers, submarines, and aerial combat aren't portrayed well in Civ. My opinion is they never have been.

It would be a great game to play. I had one for Civ II, but stopped playing it because it was so difficult to make any progress against the AI who knew where my ships were all the time.

	09-04-2002 05:02									#21
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Hi, I'm planning on doing a worldwide ww2 scenario. I'm probably going to have to create some custom civs, I'll definately want to use all 16 available civs in the game. Maybe we could get together to do that, Constantine. The list of civs that I would include is following:

1. Germany
   
2. USA
   
3. Russia
   
4. England
   
5. France
   
6. Japan
   
7. Spain - not sure yet...they did play quite a roll though
   
8. Italy - not sure if i should just include them into german territory
   
9. Yugoslavia - played quite a roll although militarily not very strong
   
10. China - played a roll at the end of the war against japan
    
11. Australia - not sure yet
    
12. Canada - also not sure yet
    
13. Norwegia - maybe make a country called northern states and include territory of Norwege, Sweden and Finland
    
14. Sweden - see above
    
15. Finnland - see above
    
16. Neutrals - make countries like Belgium, Switzerland and just the rest of the world neutrals...give them limited technology and maybe a limit of units if possible
    

	09-04-2002 05:08									#22
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oh btw there is an awesome site if you are into modeling all those tanks and stuff: http://www.onwar.com/tanks/
it has pretty detailed descriptions on tanks used in ww2 and even better it has 4 view drawings of the tanks which is great to use as backdrop in e.g. 3ds max when modeling!

	09-04-2002 20:23									#23
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Awsomedude, these numbers are from a book (Historical Atlas of the Third Reich), and are from May 1940.

	09-04-2002 20:39									#24
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Frodo,
I think Australia could just be put under England, although my map so far is just the Northern hemisphere. In my case, I will probably give England the I.dian subcontinent as well. This might upset Canadians, but it could probably go under US control but I am not sure whether or not Canada declared war on the axis powers at the same time the US did. Mexico might be an iteresting one to add a a neutral power, where Germany can try to get an alliance with Mexico like they did in World War I. Italy should not be under Axis control, because the two countries never coordinated attacks, and this led to Italian losses in North Africa. Italy also refused to go on any major offenses against the Allied powers, and also botched their Greek invasion, which was discouraged by Germany. Sweden Denmark and Norway can be grouped together I think, but Sweden remained neutral, so it should be its own country. Finland Is also too distinct to be grouped with either Norway or Sweden. Although they were not technically allied with Germany, they were sided against the USSR because of the Soviet war against Finland. They were classified as an Axis beligerent because they were on the wrong side of the Soviet conflict. The Benelux could be a civ (Belgium, Netherlands, and Luxembourg).
As for civ specific units, those changes can easily be made in the editor under the units tab in the rules editor. The box that says "available to" makes this possible.

	09-04-2002 23:35									#25
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well, you wanna work together constantine? We could at least start making graphics until a new editor comes out. I also have some ideas on new technologies and city improvements...like the "himmelbett" radar system...which would give a defensive bonus against air attacks. I would also make a whole new tech tree if possible and make 4 different eras..the pre war era, start of the war, mid-war and post-war era of technology...in the post war era you could put things like the h-bomb, advanced V2 rockets (maybe with nuclear warheads, or chemical warheads?...kinda surprised the germans didn't think about that..) I would also use a world wide map (like marla singers world map) as the main map and maybe just make some scenarios with the europe map, in that case you would have to leave some civs out of the game....where it probably would be interesting just to simulate the european war theater...but not as the main map. I mean it wasn't called a world war without reason...

	10-04-2002 22:00									#26
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Frodo,
A joint project would be great, maybe some others can join in as well. I am having trouble designing graphics, I don't have any sort of program for changing artwork or designing good units. The closest thing I have is just the paint program in the accessories, which wont open art files. What program can be used (and dowloaded somewhere) to create civ art files? A full map would be alright; however, Europe is a very small part of the map for its great importance in the war. maybe Europe could be tweaked to be a bot larger than it is on Marla's map. I'll work on this and put it up for downloading soon.

	10-04-2002 23:43									#27
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The Marla Map now has a bigger Europe, removed barbarian huts and goodie huts, and some player start and resource changes. You'll notice that there is an odd placement of tundra in Romania. This is there to support the oil patch that served Germany's oil needs during the war. A problem is that the germans don't have rubber, but maybe they could get some from the African coast, but I don't recall if that was German occupied. I think that area was German colony that was lost in WWI. Britain can get its oil and rubber from its colonies. Lots of other resources will need to be shifted, but this depends on how the editor will work with trades. How do I post it? Under attach file I first tried to just attach the original file, but it doesn't work. How can I zip it, or whatever I need to do?

	11-04-2002 05:27									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Constantine *When did the French tanks slaughter the Panzers? When the Germans invaded France the French had a greater number of tanks (2445 German tanks vs. 3063 French tanks), but were unable to stop the German advances anywhere. This are several reasons for this: the French had their tanks at the Maginot line, their tanks were spread through their infantry devisions, the Stukas in the luftwaffe effectively destroyed French tanks, and the Panzers were a superior tank compared to those of the French.* Ok, most of the French tanks such as the B35 had heavier armor and heavier guns (47mm) vs. the German (20mm & 37 mm). The big differance was the tactical doctrine of using flags and carrier pigeons for communications (the French) and radios ((the Germans.) The one time De Gaul got organized enough to launch a division sized counter-attack, he easily routed the German amor division, but was unable to follow up due to Germans in his rear, threatening his resupply. *The Russians had very few tanks, so to start, they will have a very limited mechanized armed forces, and the Russian cities will have a poor level of production to insure that they can't produce overwhelming numbers of T-34's too early.* No the Russians had LOTS of tanks at the start. Most of them were junk, thin armor, poor mobility, light caliber guns and machine guns and were far too slow. Tanks were thought of infantry support weapons, remember. In 1940 they did have about 100 T-34A's, but they were secret weapons and allowed out of their Ural training camps or even spoken about until 1942 when the 'C' model so surprized the Germans. The KV-1 was a good tank, but complicated and not nearly enough available. The KV-2 was a bastardization of a 152mm howitzer in a skyscraper of a turret. It was ment for use as a assault gun, but it put such NICE DENTS in those Germans that, well.... *I'm also not sure how well the British tanks did against the Germans, as the British didn't fight the Germans on land until late in the war (Dunkirk wasn't a good exhibition of the British armoury). * The Brits had two types of tanks, the light 'cruiser' designs, thin armor, fairly fast, light guns (20mm and 2 pdr {39.5mm} and the heavier and slow Matildas armed with a 2 pdr. and 2 unmounted Bren light machineguns. With the exception of the Firefly (a 90mm AA gun in a Sherman), British tanks were slow, poorly armed but well protected. In 1940, unless the Germans were able to get flanking positions with their tanks and towed AT guns, they were forced to use 88mm AA guns to disable the Matildas. *As for American tanks, they will need to be included, silly or not . Russian, British, German, and American tanks were the only really distinctive tank builders, so I will have to make different designs for these civs. Other nations will just have generic tanks (it would be silly to design a dutch tank, seeing as they had 1, that's right 1, tank at the start of the war).*

The French had some excellent designs in 1940, but no radios and inept leadership and obsolete tactics doomed them. The Itallian tanks were held in low regard BY THEIR CREWS as well as everyone else (the M13/47 was refered to as the Flaming Coffin) that even the Brits treated them as rolling targets.

	11-04-2002 10:43									#29
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hi, just use winzip to zip the files and add as an attachment...worked for me. as for rubber...i don't think that played that big a role in the war...or in general..yeah it was kinda important but not as important as e.g. oil and steel...i would make coal and iron the main "ingredient" of most units. i would make our own resources anyway..and change all the units. later on in the post war era you could maybe add chromium as a strategic resource..for advanced rockets and jets...just imagine if the war would have gone further than 1945..i'm sure the allies would have came up with their own plans for jets (they actually did) and probably the germans would have improved their me262...the main problem of the me262 was that the turbine was made of steel...which gave it a lifetime of only 10 hours. with chromium they could have made it last a lot longer which would have gave them a tremendous advantage...it was very rare though..
as for graphic programs...i would first design the units in 3dsmax and probalby work them over in adobe photoshop and then corrct the palette with the civ3editor thats somewhere here on the board...haven't done it yet i'll have to try that out...

Last edited by Frodo160 on 11-04-2002 at 10:49

	11-04-2002 11:09									#30
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oh btw...i would disable settlers in a ww2 scenario...after all its about conquering territory not about building new cities...and also i have been playing the marla world map with 16 civs, now almost the whole world is populated and there are hundreds of cities...the game gets reaaaallly slow. we don't have to simulate every small village (kuhdorf..hehe) in the game.