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Kenjura
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I don't care about tech trading. I really couldn't care less about bombardment not killing, though I'd prefer if it hit defenders at least half the time, instead of killing civilians or buildings.
My problem? The AI.
The AI overvalues excess resources and luxuries. They are just that: EXCESS. They are useless unless you lose all your other ones. I hand out extra luxuries and resources (carefully, those) at a penny a piece, because I don't need them. If I need them, I take them back. It shouldn't take two luxuries, a resource, and two techs to get ONE luxury from an AI for 20 turns.
The AI does not listen to each other. Every single AI asks me in turns for my map, often demanding money and techs as well, and they only offer their crappy map in return. I refuse 100% of the time, because I know the only reason they want my map is to find the tiny holes in my borders where they can plant cities.
The AI calculates value for itself, not for me. It doesn't even guess. I've refused The Republic a thousand times already. I might pay a few gold just to get it out of my hair. But it's 1500 AD! I'm halfway to FLIGHT for god's sake. Why would I ever pay 10000 gold and three techs for a useless ancient tech? Maybe the AI would, but I wouldn't.
They pretend as if you can actually haggle. You can't. Even if their demand is 10000 gold, you're lucky to get them down to 9990. Wow, what a window. 10 gold out of 10000. And of course, the process of haggling is very painstaking, as all you can do is delete and add offers, not change them.
The AI does not know how to fight. The only way they can score even minor victories over me is through their unpredictable idiocy, and my carelessness. They will declare wars over stupid demands like "give us three modern techs so we can upgrade our spearmen", then you won't see them for another 20 turns. The unit AI cares only for the moment. They will always attack the weakest target they know of, distance be damned. If your capital lies undefended within a single turn's movement of an enemy, just place a worker next to him, and they'll waste their turn capturing it. The division of AI into unit, city, and overlord is at fault here. Their communication is minimal.
Finally, a minor concern. What is the point of being able to threaten? It doesn't matter if I have 25 ICBMs and I've used them before, and the enemy has only spearmen, and I'm only demanding 3 gold. They won't give in, ever. Why even make it an option? And another thing...sometimes, I have games where everyone loves me to death. Yet I never get any gifts, ever. I give free techs and money all the time. Nobody even sends a thankyou card. Is the AI even playing the same game as the humans?
I don't expect the next patch to address this. It will be lethal bombardment (stupid and pointless) and other minor concerns.
My final verdict for civ3: disappointment.
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Scipio Africanu
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I agree, partially, to your comments on trading with other civs.
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bigvic
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Columbia, S.C.
Nov 2001
time: 00:18
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Kenjura:
Amen brother to about 95% at least of what you said. Her's my thoughts on the topic, for the third time on this forum.
25-03-2002 18:39
Whining
This was origionally posted on another thread, but obviously belongs here more. I feel much better now that I see so many w/ the same problem. My suggestion is get rid of this latest irritation (the patch) and wait for the next pain in the butt patch to come out, praying they don't succeed in messing up more than they fix.
What follows is a frustrated rant tapped out at 3:00 AM last night. As such, its nasty and foul, but even now, with time and perspective, I still stand by what I said. 25-03-2002 08:01
Whining
I guess I'm in a foul mood. The second patch was installed on friday, caused a crash on saturday. I play a heavily modified game that works fine w/o any patches (both have caused probs). What is the deal about mods and patches again?
Foul mood that I'm in, I noticed that the next patch that will probably cause the program to crash will fix the "can't sink a ship w/ a plane" idiocy. Just thinking about that started irritating me. For generally such a great game it sure feels like I'm playing a beta test version, or something programed by the fine folks at Microsoft that bring us windows. Anyway, the more I play this game, the more lamebrained garbage keeps popping up. How is it possible that they tested this thing? I swear, sometimes it seems like not at all, or worse, testing was done, problems noted, and shoddy product knowingly released.
I read some comments about spearmen killing tanks. Never seen it yet, though can imagine it would be irritating. You gotta rationalize things like that, though. I mean what does a spearman unit in the modern age represent anyway, a bunch of spear toting primitives, or a small, poorly organized second line group of AK-47 toting thugs? At least thats how I see it. What I find more irritating is that the AI seems to cheat more at higher levels instead of play a better game. How many times have I run a thorough spy sweep, found nothing, attacked, then been faced with 30 - 40 primo attack units the next, issueing out of one of his frontline cities? How many games have I been forced to hard charge toward the Great Library because apparantly the AI loves tech trading fairly with itself, but not me?
Yeah, I know, whine whine, boo hoo. But am I the only one here noticing these things? What about the inability of the AI to form coalitions? This bugs me far more than the spearman vs. tank thing. You know, that part of the game where ally 1 declares war on ally 2, who is at war with enemy one, who allies with ally 1, and so on, ad nauseum. Sure its a game, but its supposed to be simulation something, and what, I don't know. I know my history pretty well, and despite some pretty cutthroat periods in early modern Europe, what precedent is there, for large, major powers behaving like this? None, above the level of petty feudal squabbles, and even most of those had more logic than the chaotic, irrational world dogfight cage matches that one witnesses in Civ III. It seems they could have taken a few clues from the nearly flawless and much quicker diplomatic situation of SMAC. At least there you could win a cooperative victory, ask someone to "call off your vendetta against my friend", and do so much quicker. And don't even get me started on that pathetic excuse for a "scenario editor".
I know, stop flaming, but jeez! A few more months of evaluation and playtesting might have made what is, I admit, a remarkable game, a true masterpiece instead of the cobbled together-promising-yet-dissapointing-product-of-lazy-genius that it is.
PS: I personally hope they really fix this obsession of mine.
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bigvic
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Columbia, S.C.
Nov 2001
time: 00:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Zachriel
I would much rather have the game in its present form and available for gameplay. If you would rather, just don't play it until next year. Then pretend it was just released. |
Actually, if I weren't so addicted to it, I might follow your advice. Just wish I had not blown the $50 (I'm a real cheapo). But understand, this is a thread dedicated to complaints. Believe me, I have more, but then constructive criticism for firaxis would be better. My hope is that the guys at firaxis will run across this stuff, not get too offended at the rantings of frustrated customers, and do better next time. I'm kind of giving up on these patches. That said, what we have is basically a beta version and I suppose we're the test group who pay for that priviledge. At least its not as bad as CTP2. As far as that is concerned, I guess I just expect more from something that has Sid's name on it. I'm also confident that these guys will fix the screw ups sooner or later (later, my guess) and I will be happy all the time then. Just wish theyed give some kind of discount to purchasers of the origional.
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Tarquelne
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Firaxis TO DO list for Mar 26, 2002:
quote:
Originally posted by Kenjura
It shouldn't take two luxuries, a resource, and two techs to get ONE luxury from an AI for 20 turns. |
Make all trades 1 for 1, regardless of relative civ strengths, relationship, or the value of the items being traded.
quote:
The AI does not listen to each other. Every single AI asks me in turns for my map, |
Make the computer players less likely to trade with human, more likely to trade with each other. Re-impliment trading during human turn.
quote:
...and they only offer their crappy map in return....
The AI calculates value for itself, not for me. |
Have the AI never offer the human a deal that doesn't favor the human.
quote:
But it's 1500 AD! I'm halfway to FLIGHT for god's sake. Why would I ever pay 10000 gold and three techs for a useless ancient tech? Maybe the AI would, but I wouldn't.
Even if their demand is 10000 gold, you're lucky to get them down to 9990. |
Call back CDs with pre-release code on them.
quote:
The AI does not know how to fight.
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Create PC "civ" type game AI 10-times better than any ever written before.
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Tarquelne
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quote:
Originally posted by SpencerH
What does that mean? |
If the AIs in K.s games are asking 10000 gold+3 techs for Rep. (and Rep. is "useless") when Flight is near, or only going down to 9990 from 10000 in negotation, and K. seems to imply things like that happen regularly. K. must be using an old, pre-public release version of the game. Firaxis should replace those at no cost to the consumer.
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The Thinker
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quote:
Originally posted by Tarquelne
Make all trades 1 for 1, regardless of relative civ strengths, relationship, or the value of the items being traded. |
This seems far too far in the other dirrection. I am rich and they are small, I don't mind paying extra for a luxury because I can afford it, say one luxury and a tech, or one luxury and 10 gold per turn. I guess I'm saying there should be a top amount, say 120% of an items value. It would be a smart thing to do, because at current prices it's easier to build 20 tanks. If I get an ally I can kill a Civ just because it overcharged,
quote:
Make the computer players less likely to trade with human, more likely to trade with each other.
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What I'd really like to see is the AI treat the human player the same as another AI. Instead the AI will trade tech to each other for effectively 0 gold.
Rik
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Kenjura
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Thanks for the lovely to-do list.
I wish I had the capacity to post complete garbage. I only post criticism if there's at least a chance for it to be constructive. Criticising other people's criticism isn't going to improve civ3, nor will it stop them.
On another note, just what am I doing wrong? A strong human gets *good* offers from weak AI? Do I have to play Chieftain or Deity to get that? No, the only deals I get are 95% world map for world map, and 5% I give them some great new tech for some crappy old one that I've refused 20 times and could research myself in 4 turns if I wanted it.
There is the very core of my argument.
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Tarquelne
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quote:
Originally posted by Kenjura
I only post criticism if there's at least a chance for it to be constructive.
Criticising other people's criticism isn't going to improve civ3, nor will it stop them. |
The TO DO list seemed better (easier, more fun, probably just as effective) than posting "I think your utterly wrong, here's why...." Sorry if you thought I was merely trying to criticize-without-construction, but I do think that each response does point out the problem with your complaint. You're supposed to realize, for example, that there are reasons why the AI offers "unfair" deals.
The point of criticizing suggestions/complaints I don't agree with is - if the complainer is not going to be "stopped" (are you saying that you will _never_ change your mind, no matter what?) - to try to show others - esp. Firaxis - that a change doesn't need to be made. If people make what I think are bad suggestions and complaints based on misconceptions, I'm going to argue against them. I just think that's better than threads that simply stack on complaint upon the other.
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26-03-2002 05:13
So... when is that multiplayer + script & complete editor patch suppose to be released. 
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