26-03-2002 20:07									#1
	Colourless units Increase the size of your Attachments

I'm just wondering about peoples experiences with colourless units. For my part, I've found them an interesting addition. I've added a powerful colourless "mercenary" (based on the Swiss pikeman of the 14th-16th centuries) during the middle ages that the AI builds and uses pretty much as I do. I've also just added an assasin unit that is colourless and stealthy after espionage. I gave it a low attack/defense value with the idea that they could infiltrate other civs and destroy improvements and capture workers etc. I havent seen the AI build them yet, but then they're stealthy! Strangely, my units have been quickly hunted down and killed by the AI. I'm not sure how or why but I suspect that the AI civ's can "see" stealth units, or the stealth isnt working.

	26-03-2002 22:45									#2
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The only non-visible units are subs. Colorless units are units with no known NATIONALITY. They free for all to kill just like barbarians and the AI will go out of its way to kill them if they can.

They used to attack privateers so rabidly they would kill off their weaker ships trying to sink them. Now they leave the privateers alone till they get ironclads. At that point they start going after them. They also stopped trying to attack privateers that were stacked with battleships like they used to.

So what you have done is create an easy mark for them to upgrade their troops with. I am sure they would thank if they could.

Heck they used to see privateers from across the world and way beyond their vision. That was exploited as a way to controll the AI ship movements.

	26-03-2002 23:14									#3
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Well it depends on what unit you're talking about. My "mercenary" is no easy mark. It's the strongest unit on the map until musketmen. The "assasin" is a test-mod based on a suggestion in another thread. Its stealthy based upon checking stealth in the unit editor ALONG WITH hidden nationality. They do seem to be "easy marks" but I'm not sure why.

	26-03-2002 23:43									#4
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OK. Which units are being hunted down then? The mercenaries would be because they should be treated the same as privateers. They aren't really mercenaries after all. They are a bunch of lawless bandits. With good A/D but still nothing but a bunch of ronin at best from the AI's point of view. Trouble makers best done away with.

The Assasins are something else of course. That check mark is for planes. Most likely your assasins are very resistant to interception by jets. So if you haven't seen the AI dropping napalm on your assassins then I would have to say they are working as expected.

Perhaps you should be using your assassins to put sugar in the gas tanks of aircraft.

	26-03-2002 23:54									#5
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As you've said, anything "colourless" is a target for the AI, but they are targets that have a lot of interesting uses including those for which you would use the privateer at sea.

As for the "stealth" checkmark for planes only, is that opinion or fact? After all hidden nationality is only for privateer .

I think you may be right though, that it's stealth from interception. The funny thing is I've never built stealth fighters or bombers. My games never last that long.

	27-03-2002 00:21									#6
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quote: As for the "stealth" checkmark for planes only, is that opinion or fact?

Educated guess. I haven't programmed anything since I had an Apple ][ but if I was programming it would be a bit like this.

Civ launches bomber attack at tile 55,55

Check to to see if tile has fighter cover

IF fighter cover THEN

Check to see if attacker has stealth flag set

IF flag is set THEN roll virtual 20 sided die

IF 1 THEN run attacker killed animation

IF >1 THEN run successfull bomb run animation

I don't think your assassin qualifys for the any of that. Its not making a bomb run. Not even if its a wild eyed anarchist with a spherical bomb in its hand like the King used in Battle Chess on the Knight.

	27-03-2002 00:30									#7
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I think your guess makes sense, especially since stealth is only required while attacking. It would explain why my "assasins" dont work as expected. For my purposes, I was thinking of stealth while the unit was passing through enemy territory. "Stealth" in a CIV2 context might have worked as I expected.

	27-03-2002 00:36									#8
	Remove this text

IIRC, "submarine" will make any unit invisible. So, unless you change another unit, only AEGIS Crusiers (and Destroyers?) will be able to see your new unit. "Waterspout! Assasin off the port bow, sir!"

	27-03-2002 00:37									#9
	Re: Colourless units Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Strangely, my units have been quickly hunted down and killed by the AI. I'm not sure how or why but I suspect that the AI civ's can "see" stealth units, or the stealth isnt working.

Someone mentioned that the Stealth ability doesn't work for land units, only air. The Submarine ability does though. I tried it for a short time, but I didn't like the idea of not being able to see those units that were whacking me. Again though, I got the distinct impression that the AI could see them a little better than they were supposed to.

	27-03-2002 00:42									#10
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Thanks.

That explains the problem. I'll amend the bic file and make a new batch to see what happens.

You should become aware of them when they attack. Then you will have to hunt em down "just like for real" .

	27-03-2002 02:22									#11
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH You should become aware of them when they attack. Then you will have to hunt em down "just like for real" .

That's what I was afraid of. I did find a compromise though, I gave my units 1 move, all terrain as roads. So they have this nasty habit of jumping out of nowhere, much like being invisible. It works quite well, and the AI seems to like them. I have an Assassin unit that's a sheer terror for my Cavalry. Two or three of them can even take out an Infantry. They certainly keep me on my toes.

	27-03-2002 02:50									#12
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My "assasin" isnt quite that strong. Since it is a relatively modern unit I planned this first test with a special forces role of recon and sabotage.

	27-03-2002 03:46									#13
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH My "assasin" isnt quite that strong. Since it is a relatively modern unit I planned this first test with a special forces role of recon and sabotage.

I tried giving my special forces unit bombardment, in hopes that it would simulate sabotage. Someday soon I'll have a game last untill the modern era and try it out....

	27-03-2002 03:57									#14
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My assasins come with espionage which isnt quite modern. But if you want to try out your version you'll just have to make the sacrifice and let the game run on longer .

Bombardment. Now that is interesting. It gives the unit the ability to destroy buildings etc. I wonder if the AI would use it in the same way. If not, it would be a bit of a cheat. Its definitely worth testing though.

Why wait till the modern era ? Spies/special forces have been around for a long time. I delayed mine till after the first colourless unit so that there would be little overlap. I didnt want a whole host of these guys running around, just enough to make things interesting.

	27-03-2002 04:07									#15
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH My assasins come with espionage which isnt quite modern. But if you want to try out your version you'll just have to make the sacrifice and let the game run on longer . I respond: ;p [QUOTE] Bombardment. Now that is interesting. It gives the unit the ability to destroy buildings etc. I wonder if the AI would use it in the same way. If not, it would be a bit of a cheat. Its definitely worth testing though.

I'm _hopeing_ the AI will park 'em in a defensable spot and start wreaking improvements and destroy the occasional building. I also made them air-droppable, so that can appear right ontop of mountains, hills, etc. without needing to try to pass through enemy territory. (They're not invisible.)

quote: Why wait till the modern era ? Spies/special forces have been around for a long time.

But did un-tracable, infrastructure wreaking units exist then? I thought my modern day bombarding/colorless unit a bit sci-fi. I know that past and present units could operate behind enemy lines and cause problems, but on the scale of that a Civ3 unit is capable of?

	27-03-2002 04:29									#16
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I think its hard to say how much effect special forces (including spies) have had prior to WWII. British intelligence, that grew out of naval intelligence, has existed as an entity for 150-200 years and Britain certainly benefited from its activities during that time. Consider Mati Hari. The effect of her espionage was reported to be worth a division!


I think it would be wrong to create a superunit that can go around destroying at will. One or two (or 10) units that can do a fair bit of damage (destroy buildings or terrain improvements) but are extremely vulnerable might be a fair model of special forces. If they're expensive to build and maintain the unit numbers might be kept low especially when you consider that as they attack they have to be revealed (since they're submarines). If the defender has a unit nearby they should be dead meat providing their defense value is kept low.

	27-03-2002 07:46									#17
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I changed my "assasins" stats to include submarine and they're still found very quickly, mostly by Ai "assasins". I also added bombard but it didnt work at all. Perhaps there is something else to change. I'll check.

	27-03-2002 07:56									#18
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Make your Assassins see subs. That way your's and the AIs will be on even footing.

	27-03-2002 09:21									#19
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Something like the cruise missle tag could be useful, makes them kind of like suicide bombers...the best I could see with what we have.

	27-03-2002 09:42									#20
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I've been using the "submarine" flag for quite a while and it does work on land units. The problem is when you also give the unit the "hidden nationality" flag. The hidden nationality attribute apparently overrides the submarine attribute. I originally had my assassin unit as a "stealth" unit (submarine flag) and it worked great until I realized I'd still start a war when I used it to attack (doesn't seem right does it? I mean it's a stealth unit, how do they know who attacked?!?!). I added hidden nationality and all of a sudden the AI could see my assassin units.

I also did this with my scouts. I gave them submarine and hidden nationality. Very bizarre. The AI could see them and would try to capture them. But they couldn't capture this 0 offense and 0 defense unit; they would try and capture the unit but would wind up actually sharing the same square with my unit without capturing it! Yup, my scout unit would be sharing the same square as an Egyptian warrior unit. When my unit's turn came around I could move it off of that square no problem. I could not, however, move my scout onto a square occupied by another civ's unit. I eventually took off the hidden nationality flag b/c it was a pain having those foreign units on top of my scouts as it would stop the long distance pathfinding function. Another strange twist...these same units that were visible to the AI civs were invisible to the barbs. I could walk one of those scouts right past a pile of barbs. If a barb tried to occupy a square already being used by one of these scouts then the barb would kill the scout. I wish that if you used the hidden nationality flag on a unit type that the barbs would recognize the unit as one of their own and not attack it. That would be rather cool IMO.

I've been thinking about trying something new. A ninja unit with submarine, hidden nationality, zero offense and zero defense. Essentially an artillery unit only. With light bombard value primarily for harrassing and weakening other units. Maybe pillage also. If things go like they did with the scout, enemy units would try to capture it but would be unable to...they would occupy the same square but the ninja would remain under my control. As if the ninjas were hidden so well that the occupying forces could not find them right beneath their noses!

Problems for using this unit in a game: being artillery, the AI wouldn't build them or use them properly. They would be almost invincible since only barbarian units could kill them...unless...something I haven't tested yet...maybe hidden nationality units (like barbs) would be able to kill them. I doubt that would work though as I use hidden nat units to capture workers all the time. Units with ZOC might kill this ninja unit though. Also when the next patch comes out, maybe bombard units could kill it. Perhaps this flag combo with zero offense and defense could be used for a helicopter. That way it could move about w/o land units being able to kill it (but prob not air units either). It would take a unit with bombard and the ability to kill via bombard to destroy it (assuming that's how the next patch editor works).

Sorry for the long rant... but I've been playing with these flags for a while and I finally remembered my password to post.

In summary:
Submarine flag works on land units, I use it for Jag Warriors and other units quite effectively. I know I don't see the units and I'm pretty sure the AI can't see them either, from what I can tell. I know the barbs can't see them.

Hidden Nationality flag seems to negate the submarine flag. If you check both flags, the AI civs can see the unit but the barbs cannot.

If you use both flags and have zero offense and defense (maybe just defense? never tried it...) the AI civs will try and capture the unit but will instead occupy the same square as the unit without you losing control of it. The barbs will not be able to see the unit but will kill it if they stumble across it.

I hope that if a Firaxian reads this they don't consider that last one a bug. I like it and think it's a neat exploit to mod with.

	27-03-2002 17:29									#21
	Remove this text

Although it seems that way, I'm not sure about the hidden nationality overiding the submarine flag yet. What I've noticed is that my units are safe for a few turns, especially if they stay away from cities. This is unlike units with hidden nationality that are attacked immediately. If one of the assasins is attacked(usually by an AI assasin) the others are also attacked in swift succession but I have seen some elude attack. What may be happening is that the AI's unit movements may bump into my assasins which exposes them. The AI then sends out its own assasins (the correct unit since it can see my "submarine") to counter my assasin. I thought of this possibility while watching my end of turn. My automated workers were buzzing around doing stuff and I wondered what would happen if an AI assasin was in the middle of it all.

	27-03-2002 22:25									#22
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quote: Originally posted by XMon Very bizarre. The AI could see them and would try to capture them. But they couldn't capture this 0 offense and 0 defense unit; they would try and capture the unit but would wind up actually sharing the same square with my unit without capturing it! Yup, my scout unit would be sharing the same square as an Egyptian warrior unit. When my unit's turn came around I could move it off of that square no problem. I could not, however, move my scout onto a square occupied by another civ's unit.

I discovered that as well. I decided to see what would happen if I used my Explorer that way, and I ended up with a unit that could wander around an enemy empire pillaging at will, and basically be indestructible while doing so. A little to powerful for my liking. It was bizarre to see an enemy unit on the same square as mine.

Thanks for the info on the Sub ability, that would explain why it didn't work out that well when I tried it. The first time I sent one out, it didn't even make it 3 squares into my enemies territory, even though I couldn't see his at all. Somehow it didn't seem quite fair.

	28-03-2002 04:09									#23
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Aside from the "standard" mods such as increasing HP and changing attack/def stats I think the colourless unit is the first "real" improvement to CIV3 gameplay. It certainly changes things!

	28-03-2002 04:21									#24
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Yes, I really like them as well, I wonder why they didn't add that to begin with. Although I suspect that a lot of people wouldn't be to happy about being ambushed all the time. One thing I noticed when it comes to using them, you reap what you sow. If I start attacking his cities with them, and making a general nuisance of myself, it will step up production of them as well, and ram them down my throat. If I just use them to protect my borders against interlopers, it will do exactly the same, and I don't have to worry about wave after wave of them heading for my citiies, just my Workers/Settlers and the odd unit guarding the border.

	28-03-2002 04:50									#25
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Kinda funny - I was talking about "terrorists" over on CFC and nobody seemed to care! I guess I used the wrong term...

I created a whole tree - brigands, 2/1/1 available with currency, bandits, 4/2/2 available with banking, guerillas 6/2/1 (all terrain as roads) available with Radio, and Terrorist 12/4/1 (ATAR) available with smart weapons.

I found that if you created too a strong ATAR unit, it quickly became the dominate unit. 3 move is usually enough to go from the edge "your" territory (which you got to for free via rails) and cross the 2 square culture border and attack at the same turn. Cities were being captured ad naseum!

The AI does certainly do a decent job with them, however it won't make a big enough stack to assault and capture a city. Since a human player would be intelligent enough to do so, I removed them as being unbalancing.

Cheers,
Shawn

	28-03-2002 04:50									#26
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It would be nice if firaxis could pick up on this direction and add a few more things in the editor for us to play with so that we could turn out better variants.

	28-03-2002 04:56									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Grey Knight I found that if you created too a strong ATAR unit, it quickly became the dominate unit.

One thing I've been concerned about is that the AI sometimes makes so many of them, which I've made fairly costly to build, that I wonder if its regular military might end up suffering as a result.

	28-03-2002 08:09									#28
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quote: Although it seems that way, I'm not sure about the hidden nationality overiding the submarine flag yet.

I'll have to try that again. It would be nice to move my assassins through the outskirts of a civ w/o bunches of units trying to kill them.

quote: I decided to see what would happen if I used my Explorer that way, and I ended up with a unit that could wander around an enemy empire pillaging at will, and basically be indestructible while doing so. A little to powerful for my liking.

You're right about that. I'm going to play with the ninja unit idea with bombardment but w/o pillaging. I know the AI won't use it properly but perhaps after the next patch... Has anyone tried to bombard a unit with zero defense? If it doesn't work now maybe with the lethal bombardment flag activated it will.

quote: Yes, I really like them as well, I wonder why they didn't add that to begin with. Although I suspect that a lot of people wouldn't be to happy about being ambushed all the time.

Give the scouts the ability to see submarines and let them function as...well...scouts! Border recon and all that. Make them available to all civs and make them cheap. They'd be like the Army's Eskimo Scouts in Alaska. Eyes peeled for sneaky spetsnaz soldiers prowling around the pipeline. AI wouldn't use them correctly but the AI cheats anyway.

	28-03-2002 12:45									#29
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I like the idea, except i'm one of those people who never change anything, even though I know how to and would like to do so.