26-03-2002 21:48									#1
	To reasearch or not to research? Enter the AD-FREE zone

To reasearch or not to research? Now THAT is the question.

Let me explain,

I really dont see the purpose of max funding for research except when I want a tech before other civ. The way I see it you're better of not putting one cent in research cuz that way you'll make lots of money to buy those techs or improvments.

But personnally, I almost never buy techs from civs. I go after the most advanced civ, capture a couple of cities and then I just make a deal with them to sign a peace treaty against all their techs. And when I get to a tech that I really want fast, like Military traditon, I max fund it and I get it in 4 turns cuz I always got the money. I always have like 500/turn and never to far back with techs. Most of the time I'm equal to the other civs.

So, tell me, why should I have max funding? Even if I'm in front with techs and I want to sell them, most likely the AI wont have money or goods to trade with me. So what's the use of a "reasearch bar"? Thoughts?


Second, this is how I think the research bar should work, just thought you'd like to know:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=42992


Spec.

	26-03-2002 21:58									#2
	Increase the size of your Attachments

The only time I ever max out my science is to get the Hoover Dam. I think I've got it every game I've played but I dont know why! I'm usually not the tech leader, why bother?

	26-03-2002 22:00									#3
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Spec,

I'm one of the people who stubbornly continues to go for the tech lead, so I figured I'd chime in. I use the GL to gain parity at the end of the ancient era (monarch level). I build up my cities (library, market, univ, bank), I wonder hog, I play with the slider to get tech as fast as possible, but saving as much cash as possible.

I will end up fighting, either because I decided to attack someone, or I get attacked (usually #2). I will often destroy the AI that attacks me, and hopefully I will gain a leader from this so I can build the forbidden palace in an optimal location. This, after I build up the area around the forbidden, effectively doubles my economy, allowing me to pull away in tech. Throw in ToE, and I'm on my way to a solid tech lead.

You can absolutely blow the AI away (on Monarch, at least, the highest levels have such insane bonuses that I cannot in good faith suggest trying to out-research the AI unless you manage to get incredibly powerful... in which case you've won) if you use a combo of early warmongering and building with a militaristic civ (and some luck). Early leader(s) = forbidden early = a large, productive empire. I've done this with Japan, and managed a 1/2 Age lead (entered Modern Age while the AI was partway through the Industrial Age...had Modern Armor before they got Tanks).

So I think it's worth it, but I've always been big on having a tech lead. I enjoy working for it.

-Arrian

	26-03-2002 22:18									#4
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Arrian Spec, I'm one of the people who stubbornly continues to go for the tech lead...So I think it's worth it, but I've always been big on having a tech lead. I enjoy working for it. -Arrian

Why do you think it's worth it?

	26-03-2002 22:31									#5
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I don't go above 20% for research I get lots of banks and wall street (not to mention taxmen). I use that extra money to up the research bar then in the domestic advisor's screen. By that point, I'm like 40% research 40% entertainment (or somthing close to that).

I don't like buying tech because I usually have to give the AI an arm and a leg to get it.

ME: I want: Printing Press; I'll give: 100 gold

Liz: I want: 200 gold, World Map, Iron, Silks, Dyes, 50 gold/perturn; I'll give: Territory map

	26-03-2002 23:32									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Spec,

Why is it worth it? Well, if all goes well, I will have a decent tech lead by the late industrial age, which means I'll have Tanks and Bombers before anyone else. That's a nice advantage to have. If all goes really well, I can get to Tanks before they have infantry. I tend to fight for crucial empire expansion in the middle ages, but I end up doing some more fighting later on for luxuries and/or because one of the AI's decides to commit suicide. The Germans did that recently, in my Japanese game, and found that their riflemen didn't stand up very well to my Tanks.

I'm also usually the first to build libraries, marketplaces, universities and banks, so my economy ramps up faster than theirs... and so does my culture. I sometimes build wonders before the AI has the tech for them (particularly ToE and Hoover).

Finally, it's worth it because I enjoy it. I enjoy finally leaving the multiheaded AI research consortium in the dust.

-Arrian

	26-03-2002 23:43									#7
	Got spare money?

As you say, your ability to build a tech lead and the benefits you get from it is based upon monarch. I also wonder whether the map size and shape (continents vs islands) is a factor. I find that if the AI can't trade with itself, it has trouble keeping up with tech research and trade is tougher the further from pangea you get.

	27-03-2002 00:04									#8
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Thrawn05 ...By that point, I'm like 40% research 40% entertainment (or somthing close to that).

What?! Why 40% entertainment? Why dont you build temples, cathedrals and colosseums? And if you do, IMHO, you're wasting money. i never go over 20%.

Spec.

	27-03-2002 00:52									#9
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by SpencerH As you say, your ability to build a tech lead and the benefits you get from it is based upon monarch. I also wonder whether the map size and shape (continents vs islands) is a factor. I find that if the AI can't trade with itself, it has trouble keeping up with tech research and trade is tougher the further from pangea you get.

I typically play Normal size, Continents, 70% water, Monarch level w/8 civs. I also sometimes play Large maps, same settings except 12 civs. I've never tried a 'pelago map, but I may check it out at some point.

-Arrian

	27-03-2002 01:08									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Oooh yeah, I love the Hoover via TOE method. Works great on Panagea, and basically cements the win.

Once, though, I was an idiot, playing on continents, built TOE and used it to get Electronics--then kicked myself because I was on a continent that had no rivers. And to think I had been cursing that lack of fresh water earlier on because I couldn't irrigate.

Getting the tech lead can be difficult especially with 1.17s rampant AI tech trading/sharing. The way I've been getting it is first building the GL. With that, I stop researching and build the treasury, along with my infrastructure, commerce and productive capacity. Try to snag the happiness wonders, and create a science city with Newton's and Copernicus.

	27-03-2002 02:01									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

communism. can't really "buy" improvements, so money is only worthwhile in diplomacy.

i often find myself with 90-100% science in the later game, because of my resource sales i always end up in the black.

	27-03-2002 02:55									#12
	Remove this text

What do you mean you can't buy improvements? By the mid-industrial age I usually have a 400-500 gold per turn income... I use that cash to rush build all my border/newly conquered cities into semi-prosperity.

	27-03-2002 03:15									#13
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by randommushroom Once, though, I was an idiot, playing on continents, built TOE and used it to get Electronics--then kicked myself because I was on a continent that had no rivers. And to think I had been cursing that lack of fresh water earlier on because I couldn't irrigate.

Was it one of the tournament games? I did the same thing!

	27-03-2002 03:25									#14
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by TinCow What do you mean you can't buy improvements? By the mid-industrial age I usually have a 400-500 gold per turn income... I use that cash to rush build all my border/newly conquered cities into semi-prosperity.

He was talking about communism, which "rushes" by killing population, instead of money. You sound like you're running a democracy or republic. Hence the difference in approach.

-Arrian

	27-03-2002 05:26									#15
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Spectator What?! Why 40% entertainment? Why dont you build temples, cathedrals and colosseums? And if you do, IMHO, you're wasting money. i never go over 20%. Spec.

Yes I do build them, and top it with the wonders that help happiness. But even that doesn't help that one or two unhappy people. Besides, everything about 40% is just wasted money, since everything above that is still 4 turns.

And to boot, when I getting 300+ money a turn, I hate other civs demanding 200 gold per turn.

	27-03-2002 20:46									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

SpencerH, for whatever reason, I've never had interest in playing GOTMs, so my case was from my own randomly generated map. I prefer my own self-inflicted sadism versus another's.

	27-03-2002 21:05									#17
	Support Apolyton

My point, that I have been repeating and being repeatedly ignored , is that you do not have to research to win.

Under 1.17f that is.

Therefore, the game is broken. IMHO.

	27-03-2002 21:31									#18
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick My point, that I have been repeating and being repeatedly ignored , is that you do not have to research to win. Under 1.17f that is. Therefore, the game is broken. IMHO.

As a matter of fact, researching yourself during ancient and medieval eras is a waste of money and won't help you in anyway.

Who's been able to win emperor/deity whilst mostly researching himself since the latest patch?

On monarch yes, but above?
Quite impossible IMO.

Go for the money and establish yourself as the top civ near the middle/end of industrial era. Then you'll be able to start researching succesfully (maintaining a lead) yourself.

AJ

	28-03-2002 01:46									#19
	The Value of Ancient Techs Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

In the beginning of the game the AI of the game, the AI highly undervalues techs. This is why you can buy them for pennies & still have enough commerce to do research or luxury if you want. In the late part of the game the AI highly overvalues techs, such as the recent 10000 gold for Republic. You can make a fortune simply selling techs in the late part of the game.

I think what is "broken" is the AI believes it MUST have all technologies that are possible rather than focusing on moving on to more advanced techs. Some find it disturbing that some AI is offering Republic in the Industrial/Modern Ages for 10000 gold... what is worse IMO is that AI may have paid 10000+ gold for Republic the turn before OR refused to advance to the Middle Ages until it had Republic, even tho it planned to continue to use Monarchy.

	28-03-2002 02:37									#20
	Tech or not to Tech Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Personnaly I love to tech out. I usally play America and use 3-6 scout to get my first techs. Then I max out my slider bar. (As well as I can).

The reason I tech out is that the game has a built in cheat. To prove this I used the editor and removed all the techs from the AI. I then sold 1 AI iron working. Amazingly enough when I checked the other nations they all had it.

Another reason to tech out is that the game can afford it. I sold 3 techs to France. I pulled in 2,250 gold per turn. Do you think, you as a player could ever afford that?

With the money, I did a quick build on everything I wanted.

	28-03-2002 03:06									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

my entertainment scrollbar never moves from 0. never. not on diety, not ever.

if my people are mad i starve the rioters. how dare they whine.