28-03-2002 09:53									#31
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cloud- um im an american so listen up.... there have been great civilizations throughout history hence the game. Every one of them has been *****slapped at some point by another newer greater more able civilization...... our day will come.

	28-03-2002 19:03									#32
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither It's a Democratic Republic based on a Union of Sovereign States.

The US of A is a Republic! Under democracy the will of the majority is paramount without regard to personal freedoms. It is essentially a "dictatorship of the majority" with no checks and balances to protect the individual. As far as I can tell, the founders of the American republic rejected the concept of America as a "democracy". Clearly, the US is not a "democracy" under these types of government definitions.

On the other hand, the American republic is distinct from, for example, the early Roman republic since the representatives of the people are to some extent democratically elected.

	28-03-2002 19:23									#33
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I wanna know who the second fink to vote NO was.

I know who the first fink was. ME.

Just to contrary.

Silly polls deserve silly votes. Sillier than banannas.

Just to say something serious.

The US has a constitutional Democracy. It has a few trappings of a Republic but they don't mean much in practice. A Constitutional Democracy need not be government by the Majority.

Iceland had the first Parlimentary Government. The Allthing first met in 999 to decide whether the country would go christian or not. Representives to the Allthing were chosen at local things by the people in each community.

It hasn't been an uninterupted government though. However as far as I can tell whenever Iceland was independent the government has been chosen by the people which is the essence of any democracy.

If there are any that know much about Iceland I would like some sort of feedback on this as I am pretty iffy about that place.

	28-03-2002 19:57									#34
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I was the second fink (see my original post for comment).

quote: The US has a constitutional Democracy. It has a few trappings of a Republic but they don't mean much in practice. A Constitutional Democracy need not be government by the Majority.

It would be helpful if you provided some definitions here.

	28-03-2002 22:20									#35
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No one else has definitions why should I? Because I tend to be pedantic perhaps.

However

No large country can be a Democracy in the original sense. Athens was the original model of democracy. Every male citizen voted on everything. The majority ruled and laws be damned.

For the US the laws count and the Constitution is the base of all the laws. But the majority still rules. There simply is no way any country can have everyone voting on everything. So its a representive democracy with Constitutional laws and rights to protect minorities from a tyranny of the majority. Unlike Brittain which is also a representitive democracy but has no constitution and the laws may changed by the majority at any time.

The trapping I speak of in particular is the Electoral College. Which is one of the reasons people call the US a Republic although I can't figure that one out. The Electoral College at one time had freedom to vote for whoever they felt like. They don't anymore which is why I say it is a trapping rather than a reality.

The first nation to be a Republic was Rome. One resemblance between Rome and the US is the name of the Upper House, The Senate. Another but actually important one is that the Roman Republic eventually became a rule of law as well men where lawyers and judges had effect on how the state was run. I think its kind of wrong to call the US a Republic at least now that everyone of age can vote unlike Rome where only some could vote.

I think the main reason some insist on that is that we don't have a parliment and we have states that sometimes like to pretend they are or were sovereign. Only fourteen states were even remotely sovereign at any time and only Texas was completly independent for more than a year or two.

So basically I don't see why people say the US is a Republic rather than a Democracy in comparison to other democratic states as Brittain may be the one without a constitution. We are about as close to a democracy as anyone can be unless you are talking about a city state. If we are a Repulic than even Brittain without a constitution is also a Republic as both are representitive governments based on laws.

Its a case of neither Republic or Democracy is a good label for any modern government. I simply think representitive democracy works for most if not all modern representive governments if works for any.

Someone was working on government types here. I think they had a pretty good list with Democracy referring to Athenian type city-states and Republic to states more like Rome when it was still a city-state. When I started reading the post I was thinking he was just making things more complex but when I got farther down the list I saw his modern versions. Wish I could remember the details. I think he did have modern representitive governments split into two types with one being more like the US and the other being parilamentary with a prime minister and no president. Don't see where it would make much difference in how it would work in Civ III though.

Is that fuzzy enough. If not I am sure if I go without sleep much longer I can make even less clear.


Wow I hit the submit button and got a page not found. Last time I lost what I wrote and this time its still here. I was going to forget about it. Perhaps that would have been best.

	28-03-2002 22:40									#36
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quote: For the US the laws count and the Constitution is the base of all the laws. But the majority still rules. There simply is no way any country can have everyone voting on everything. So its a representive democracy with Constitutional laws and rights to protect minorities from a tyranny of the majority.

I can think of many instances where the majority does not rule in the USA, the most recent being the federal election.

quote: Unlike Brittain which is also a representitive democracy but has no constitution and the laws may changed by the majority at any time.

The laws are changed here every day, in some instances by a powerful minority called the supreme court.

In any case we're quibbling. Representative democracy (goverment) is as good a term as any.

	28-03-2002 23:17									#37
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Since this is getting into to the sort of territory Ming is liable to be Merciless on I will not respond here Spencer. I wrote something and than decided it was way to off topic for here.

	28-03-2002 23:27									#38
	No more history lessons, please. Thank you. Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Can we stop it with the history lessons guys? This is not what this thread is suppose to be about. It's suppose to be about ways that Civilization III can be improved and that's that. Geesh.