27-03-2002 23:39									#31
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MrFun,

quote: 3) incest

Why incest?

Incestuous pregnancies increase the chances of genetic complications. Therefore, if you were to be consistent, if incest is to be a factor in abortion then so should the chance of any other inherited genetic condition. Unless, your point was backed up by a religious viewpoint, in which case it should be ignored.

	28-03-2002 00:03									#32
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I think that before the first trimester, abortion should be totally legal due to its underdeveloped brain and nervous system. Afterwards, abortion should be legal only in cases of rape or when the mother's life is in danger.

quote: But if the fetus is a living human how is abortion not murder?

The premise is that a woman can do whatever she wants with her body since it's her property.

	28-03-2002 06:08									#33
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quote: Originally posted by *End Is Forever* MrFun, Why incest? Incestuous pregnancies increase the chances of genetic complications. Therefore, if you were to be consistent, if incest is to be a factor in abortion then so should the chance of any other inherited genetic condition. Unless, your point was backed up by a religious viewpoint, in which case it should be ignored.

Unless I am mistaken, familial in-breeding can cause some serious genetic complications in the child-to-be.

But then you're probably wondering if I advocate legal abortion on grounds simply if the fetus will be born with a mental disorder or physical disorder.

No, I would never advocate such a claim. But with the exception of incest, yes, I would.

	28-03-2002 06:13									#34
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quote: Unless I am mistaken, familial in-breeding can cause some serious genetic complications in the child-to-be. But then you're probably wondering if I advocate legal abortion on grounds simply if the fetus will be born with a mental disorder or physical disorder. No, I would never advocate such a claim. But with the exception of incest, yes, I would.

Why except incest? In both cases there's a strong chance of genetic complications. What's the difference?

Either you think that foetuses (foeti?) with a strong risk of genetic complications can be aborted, or you don't. I don't see why you're digging a hole for yourself.

	28-03-2002 06:20									#35
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If I cannot make legitimate exceptions in regards to incest but not any other abnormalties with fetuses, then I guess incest should not be a reason for an abortion.

	28-03-2002 06:26									#36
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At least now your argument is consistent.

	28-03-2002 06:29									#37
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quote: Originally posted by *End Is Forever* At least now your argument is consistent.

Yeah -- now that I thought about it some more, my listing incest did not make any sense.

	28-03-2002 06:33									#38
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Ok for all you guys with a penis.......unless you have been in the position to have to make the decision to have an abortion then you really have no room for debate on this issue.

You can debate and debate until you are blue in the face but unless you've stood in that person's shoes, felt the indecision, felt the hopelessness of what do I do, how do I handle this, how do I pay for this, how do I tell my family, how do I tell his family, can I raise a child, will he help, and if I do this will I be damned to hell forever??!??? Unless you know what that feels like then it's all pure conjecture.

You have no idea the depths that a decision like that effects your life, not just for that moment but for the rest of your life.

	28-03-2002 06:35									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Giant_Squid If the former, then there's always the cliched (but only because it's so true) argument that the mother could put the kid up for adoption and that, in my opinion, a bad life is probably better than no life at all (and if you're about to disagree, explain why you haven't committed suicide yet).

I have to disagree with you on that one. A bad life is not worth living, especially when you know that the life being brought into the world will be a painful and pointless one.

Firstly, many people do commit suicide, even though it goes against self-preservation and brings a high level short-term pain.

Second, many people who don't take the drastic step of suicide turn to drugs to escape from reality. Hard drugs that very quickly reduce the persons quality of life.

So how could either of these be better than never living at all??

	28-03-2002 06:37									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Tiamat Ok for all you guys with a penis.......unless you have been in the position to have to make the decision to have an abortion then you really have no room for debate on this issue. You can debate and debate until you are blue in the face but unless you've stood in that person's shoes, felt the indecision, felt the hopelessness of what do I do, how do I handle this, how do I pay for this, how do I tell my family, how do I tell his family, can I raise a child, will he help, and if I do this will I be damned to hell forever??!??? Unless you know what that feels like then it's all pure conjecture. You have no idea the depths that a decision like that effects your life, not just for that moment but for the rest of your life.

Hey now!!

Maybe you have no idea how some guys like me have made a serious effort in trying to understand the issue as much as possible.

I have mentioned here on this thread about the pyschological, physical, and social trauma that a woman suffers after going through an abortion.

I try to understand as much as possible how abortion is a very difficult and painful decision for most women to make.

Don't start ranting about how ALL men behave and think the same.

	28-03-2002 06:37									#41
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Its pretty simple to me...

-Do i like/agree with abortion? In most cases, No (who the **** likes abortion?)

-Do I have the right to tell someone else what they can do with their own body? No I do/should not.

	28-03-2002 06:38									#42
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So we can't discuss it at all?

	28-03-2002 06:39									#43
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Don't worry guys -- I told Tiamat off I think.

	28-03-2002 06:39									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns I have to disagree with you on that one. A bad life is not worth living, especially when you know that the life being brought into the world will be a painful and pointless one.

[Devil's Advocate] You know, some people would argue that ALS makes life not worth living, painful and pointless. Stephen Hawking might disagree, however. [/Devil's Advocate]

For the record: I support full reproductive rights for women.

	28-03-2002 06:42									#45
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Amen Blisterz. Absolutely 100% spot on.

	28-03-2002 06:43									#46
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Hey now!! Maybe you have no idea how some guys like me have made a serious effort in trying to understand the issue as much as possible. I have mentioned here on this thread about the pyschological, physical, and social trauma that a woman suffers after going through an abortion. I try to understand as much as possible how abortion is a very difficult and painful decision for most women to make. Don't start ranting about how ALL men behave and think the same.

Did you see me rant and rave and say all men behave the same? I don't recall that. The generalized statement was meant to reflect the fact that this thread (through no fault of it's own) was mainly posted on by men ie: the penis reference.

The point I was trying to make and it's an old saying but.......until you can walk a mile in someone's shoes.....etc. I never attacked you personally or said that you weren't understanding. In fact most of my gay friends are much more understanding on some womens issues then hetro guys. However, the decision to have an abortion is without question the hardest thing a women will have to face. That is if she's a woman worth any salt.

No I didn't say......no you can't discuss it but the bottom line is it all boils down to being conjecture and thoughts because ultimatly it's not a decision you as a man will ever have to make with your body. Quite possibly I didn't put it correctly but I tend to do that when I think and type fast.

	28-03-2002 06:46									#47
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Don't worry guys -- I told Tiamat off I think.

Honey I'm a fag hag from way back it would take SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MUCH MORE THEN THAT to scare me off.

What so now I can't express my opinion on this issue? Or is this a guys only thread and I missed something??

	28-03-2002 06:55									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Tiamat Honey I'm a fag hag from way back it would take SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MUCH MORE THEN THAT to scare me off. What so now I can't express my opinion on this issue? Or is this a guys only thread and I missed something??

Ok, ok -- I forgive you, hon.

Can I give you some strawberries as part of my apology??

	28-03-2002 06:58									#49
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Sure as long as you have whipped cream and chocolate with them

	28-03-2002 07:10									#50
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Tiamat - despite your apology you did come off as "men can only have one opinion on the issue. And that's 'whatever women want'"..

and that's just bollocks.

	28-03-2002 08:12									#51
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quote: You can debate and debate until you are blue in the face but unless you've stood in that person's shoes, felt the indecision, felt the hopelessness of what do I do, how do I handle this, how do I pay for this, how do I tell my family, how do I tell his family, can I raise a child, will he help, and if I do this will I be damned to hell forever??!??? Unless you know what that feels like then it's all pure conjecture.

Tiamat, you know i love ya hon, but this is just wrong. No matter how heart wrenching such an experience may be, emotions NEVER justify taking any side of an argument. Something is either right or wrong for rational reasons, and NOT based on how one personally feels about something.

For this reason, men are just as qualified as women to speculate on abortion's morality.

	28-03-2002 08:34									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Tiamat Ok for all you guys with a penis.......unless you have been in the position to have to make the decision to have an abortion then you really have no room for debate on this issue.

Gah! Of all the self-rightous, idiotic ....

	28-03-2002 09:04									#53
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DanS - so you disagree with MrFun's three (or two, now) situations where he (and some others amongst us) think abortion is OK, and you are not an activist.

OK. No probs.

What I meant is that, at least from the debates I have witnessed (both professional and informal), the majority seem to agree with these three (two) and disagree vehemently on any other occasions to use abortion (if any). Sure there are those who disagree with abortion in all forms and aren't activists. I can't deny it. It seems to me that the AVERAGE opinion is the one of which MrFun and I are members (what a clumsy phrase ).

Perhaps the reason so many seem to be of this opinion is that (like me) they haven't given very much thought to the matter - and these three (two) seem, to a degree, logical. For myself, I think that the woman's right overrides a foetus' right every time. But then I have just admitted to not having thought about it much. With some persuasive argument, I may well decide that I dislike abortion under any circumstance. I can only give my opinion, and comment on others. There is no absolute right and wrong for topics like this, only law and subjective morals, that change from person to person, society to society, and religion to religion.

And Tia, thanks for giving your bit. I was going to remark on the fact that everyone here seems to be male (or at least not announcing their femininity), and we should get some female opinions. We are trying to understand what it is a woman is thinking when she wants an abortion, and also trying to think of her wellbeing. This is difficult for most of us, as I imagine few of us have had to face this in our lives. As I don't quite see your take on all of this from your posts, would you please restate your views so we might understand a little better and thus have more right to post here?

	28-03-2002 09:22									#54
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quote: Originally posted by orange Tiamat - despite your apology you did come off as "men can only have one opinion on the issue. And that's 'whatever women want'".. and that's just bollocks.

When have I ever implied or said that men have to have the same opinion as women? Hell will freeze over before that would happen. Especially here.

You're welcome to think I'm an idiot Dino. I expressed my opion and how I felt about something, I'm entitled to feel how I choose.....I just chose not to do it with name calling.

And Connor....yes I love you as well.....but many debates and arguments are done so with emotions and feelings. Most people feel passionatly about something they take a stance on. I usually won't dicuss something unless I feel passionatly about it.

Men can understand it and have feelings as well, it's their child to. They can help in the decision and be a comfort or not....their choice. Whatever works in your particular situation.

And now for a quote from the great and powerful Orange....

well, that's Apolyton for you. 19,995 penises, 5 vaginas

	28-03-2002 09:26									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Tiamat You're welcome to think I'm an idiot Dino. I expressed my opion and how I felt about something, I'm entitled to feel how I choose.....I just chose not to do it with name calling.

Tia, if I believe that innocents are being harmed for no good reason, why do you believe that I have no right to debate the etics of that and/or speak out against such a practice simply because of my sex?

	28-03-2002 09:38									#56
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You can debate it or argue it because you feel that innocents are being harmed correct? You obviously feel passionatly about it so you speak out on it.

I guess I was taking a strictly womens point of view on this issue. It's a very personal decision for someone to have to make. Having had children I guess I was sympathizing with someone who would be in that position.

	28-03-2002 09:51									#57
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We've got too many Mr's in this thread.

"Sure there are those who disagree with abortion in all forms and aren't activists. I can't deny it. It seems to me that the AVERAGE opinion is the one of which MrFun and I are member"

I would be careful with the averages in this case, especially since your experience may not reflect the international flavor of these boards. In my experience, these differences are even regional.

In the US, the figure is roughly 25% against all forms in any situation and think it should be outlawed (more or less). 20% for it in all forms and situations. 80% don't like it. 20% don't have a problem with it. 30% think it should only be legal in the situations you mention. 45% think it's none of the government's business.

It's devilishly difficult to come to a majority on this stuff, at least in the US at a national level, and different majorities will tell you contradictory things. That's why it's not a settled issue here while it appears to be settled in some other countries.

Last edited by DanS on 28-03-2002 at 09:57

	28-03-2002 09:57									#58
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I would be careful with the averages in this case, especially since your experience may not reflect the international flavor of these boards. In my experience, these differences are even regional.

But of course. You can only give your own limited take on things.

And maybe I just like to say "And that's MISTER Where It's At to you."

	28-03-2002 10:05									#59
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Sure, but you were unwittingly making a very sweeping statement that seemed to imply a polling of the whole world.

Incidentally, if you polled the whole world, there probably wouldn't be much of a constituency for the Messrs line of thought. The Chinese think it's a state matter and you can be forced to have an abortion, after all. Lots of different views.

	28-03-2002 10:10									#60
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I thought I'd covered my a$$ by saying "from what I've seen", but, oh well. << Shrug >>

Colour me stupid then.

I'd still like to hear Tia's view (apart from it being a decision we men cannot fathom).