27-03-2002 11:25									#1
	Abortion: A 'right' that is wrong? (two theses for debate) Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

There are basically two debates concerning abortion:

Thesis:

An adult woman's rights as a citizen of the United States are superior to those of a fetus.

Agree; An adult woman who is a citizen of the United States is controlled by the laws and rights of the nation. The right to abort her child is gaurenteed by Roe vs. Wade. A fetus, not being a citizen, does not possess the rights of government persecution of its murder. The "Rights of Man", unofficially assured to all individuals do not exist for a being that is not born.


Thesis 2:

When a fetus is aborted, the general good has been served as the fetus would not have any worthwhile life being the child of a woman who lacks economic oppurtunities brought on by pregnancy and being forced to raise a child.

Disagree; I have posted a thread concerning statistics (I can repost them) that show clearly that the majority of abortions are done by women over 21 years of age and the majority of abortions by women under that age are done by 17-21 year olds (who are capable of raising a child). Abortions themselves cost a great deal of money up front (examine any abortion clinic's internet site). Thus, though early teenagers and those who are truly poor should not be forced to have children, most abortions are done by women who are not under said constraints. Simply put, businesswomen have abortions out of convenience, not crack addicts.


thanks

	27-03-2002 11:32									#2
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Albert, a woman would not make a decison on mere convenience when she considers the psychological, physical, and social trauma of going through an abortion -- regardless of what class she is.

As for my opinion on abortion, I believe in restricted abortion that is legal under the following conditions:

1) rape

2) endangerment of the pregnant woman's life

3) incest

	27-03-2002 11:36									#3
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Albert, a woman would not make a decison on mere convenience when she considers the psychological, physical, and social trauma of going through an abortion -- regardless of what class she is. As for my opinion on abortion, I believe in restricted abortion that is legal under the following conditions: 1) rape 2) endangerment of the pregnant woman's life 3) incest

Stop talking sense! I'm not used to it from you

	27-03-2002 11:36									#4
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The thing is, there is no viable argument for outlawing abortion unless the fetus can be medically/scientifically defined as a living human, which AFAIK it isn't. Dr. Strangelove? Other doctors? Care to comment?

	27-03-2002 11:37									#5
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Mr. Fun:

quote: Albert, a woman would not make a decison on mere convenience when she considers the psychological, physical, and social trauma of going through an abortion

The fifth time aint a trauma... but I should try to find statistics concerning how many women have had previous abortions...


but I agree with your conditions. Note that I believe the act of abortion is not murder yet I feel that most abortions are done for illegitamite reasons. I support abortion in case of those reasons as well as if the child truly won't have a good life. It's an arbritary standard, I know, but the State has taken children away from their parents when they're deemed to be unfit. Use the same standard for allowing abortions.


thanks

	27-03-2002 11:40									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Lung Stop talking sense! I'm not used to it from you

Glad to know you're stalking me.

If you participate in this thread, try to avoid the strawman, slippery slope, and emotive language fallacies.

	27-03-2002 11:45									#7
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Glad to know you're stalking me.

Dream on

quote: If you participate in this thread, try to avoid the strawman, slippery slope, and emotive language fallacies.

BTW, what is the dreaded strawman i keep reading about? Is it like an argument without foundation or something? As for "emotive language", i like my smilies

	27-03-2002 11:50									#8
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Strawmen are flammable little ******

When I was adolescant. Some friends and I put a ciggarrete in a scarecrow hand on halloween. BOOM! Run.. Hide in the woods for a few hours till the cops left.

	27-03-2002 11:51									#9
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Personally, I prefer cow-tipping, but different folks different strokes I suppose

	27-03-2002 11:52									#10
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strawman argument fallacy: attacks a weakened form of an opponent's argument or an argument not advanced by an opponent

slippery slope fallacy: assumes, without evidence, that a given event is first in a series of steps that will lead to some outcome


emotive language fallacy: manipulates connotative meaning of words to establish a claim without proof

I would be disgusted if you were stalking me.

	27-03-2002 12:14									#11
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god damn... no one wants to debate? do i have to do what Floyd did and debate myself?

	27-03-2002 12:14									#12
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I've said it before, and i'll say it again (mostly because i just like to stir things up a bit) that I do not consider whether or not the fetus is "alive" or not to have any bearing on abortions legality. To me, whether the fetus is alive or not is NOT an issue.

Chew on that.

	27-03-2002 12:21									#13
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But if the fetus is a living human how is abortion not murder?

	27-03-2002 12:24									#14
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IMO, just because the fetus may be living, doesn't mean that the abortion is unjustified. In which case it would not be murder.

	27-03-2002 13:16									#15
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Thesis: An adult woman's rights as a citizen of the United States are superior to those of a fetus.

Agree, but we're not talking a one-to-one right correspondence here. The rights of an American citizen in the US are superior to those of a foreigner, but that doesn't mean the citizen can kill the foreigner. While that's a bad analogy, what I'm trying to say is that we're talking about the right of the woman to make a choice, whereas we're talking about the right of the fetus to live, so while the woman's rights may be more important, we're talking about a more important specific right in the fetus' case. Personally, though, I think all this "right" junk just complicates the whole discussion and we should just worry about which is the morally correct course to take.

Thesis 2:
When a fetus is aborted, the general good has been served as the fetus would not have any worthwhile life being the child of a woman who lacks economic oppurtunities brought on by pregnancy and being forced to raise a child.

I'm not sure what you mean...by general good do you mean the good of the fetus or the good of society. If the former, then there's always the cliched (but only because it's so true) argument that the mother could put the kid up for adoption and that, in my opinion, a bad life is probably better than no life at all (and if you're about to disagree, explain why you haven't committed suicide yet). If the latter, it never hurts society to have an extra contributing member.

	27-03-2002 17:56									#16
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connor,

I think it will be silly not considering the status of the embryo (or foetus). If it is considered human than abortion is just murder, right?

	27-03-2002 18:05									#17
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MrFun,

I should hope that the three circumstances that you state for situations where abortion is OK are pretty much universally considered OK by most people not part of the activist groups.

It is any extension beyond that that is the most controversial.

	27-03-2002 18:36									#18
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt MrFun, I should hope that the three circumstances that you state for situations where abortion is OK are pretty much universally considered OK by most people not part of the activist groups. It is any extension beyond that that is the most controversial.

Exactly... it seems that many people use these examples to further their argument for abortion, when that is not what is the issue.

Albert, I disagree with your thinking abortion is justified if it thought that it wouldn't have a "good" life, or be a constructive member of society.

It is hard to determine which roads will open up in life, and some people who are born into hardship are better people for it, and some are not. The undeterminable is not a reason IMO.

	27-03-2002 19:36									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger I think it will be silly not considering the status of the embryo (or foetus). If it is considered human than abortion is just murder, right?

Let's see if I remember connor's arguement correctly. Abortion is justified at any time in the prenancy, presumably until just before birth, because the mother never gave permission to the foetus for it to be residing in its body and can therefore terminate that relationship at a time of her choosing.

I now prepare to have connor correct me.

	27-03-2002 19:43									#20
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I agree with thesis 2 because no matter how much money the mother has she still does not want her child, and we have enough unwanted children in this world.

	27-03-2002 19:50									#21
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Dino: Ehh, . . . i think it might have been something like that. Anyway, the way you said it, it sounds silly. After all, if the woman TRIED to get pregnant, than she did give permission. . .
. . . I don't think that was it exactly, but no matter. I think i gave up that position anyway. I forget what i think now. Or maybe i never have decided on this issue yet. dammit. . .

	27-03-2002 19:56									#22
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quote: I've said it before, and i'll say it again (mostly because i just like to stir things up a bit) that I do not consider whether or not the fetus is "alive" or not to have any bearing on abortions legality. To me, whether the fetus is alive or not is NOT an issue.

Of course it is, throwing away something dead is diffrent from killing something and throw it than away.

First one noone cares, second one probably gets u into trouble

	27-03-2002 21:19									#23
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Abortion is one of those things that is fairly futile to outlaw, you'd just get abortion tourists going to a place where its legal (look what happened to ireland).

	27-03-2002 21:36									#24
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Regardless of whatever the reason behind a woman's RIGHT to abort her baby, it is not society's place to make policy on it.

It is reasonable to assume that a baby is aborted because it is not wanted. A child that is unwanted might not receive the love and support that a child needs. Why force a child to live a life where he/she is not going to be loved just because of your own warped sense of morals?

Until the bun comes out of the oven, I don't think it should be classified as a human being.

I have no idea whether or not abortion is equal to murder in God's (or any other higher power's) eyes. When we die, we will find out. The point is, aborted babies aren't suffering. In fact, in the majority of instances, they are being spared the burden of leading a life of pain.

Abortion is an issue between a woman and her doctor.

	27-03-2002 21:37									#25
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quote: Let's see if I remember connor's arguement correctly. Abortion is justified at any time in the prenancy, presumably until just before birth, because the mother never gave permission to the foetus for it to be residing in its body and can therefore terminate that relationship at a time of her choosing.

Actually, this is a misstatement of my position. What I believe is that a woman has the right to abort up to the point at which the fetus could be removed safely and kept alive outside her body. After that time, she has the obligation to have it removed alive if she doesn't want to carry it to term. (The vast majority of abortions take place during the first trimester, well before the fetus is independently viable.)

Even if the mother gave permission--explicitly or implicitly--for the fetus to live inside her, that permission can be withdrawn.

	27-03-2002 21:40									#26
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quote: Originally posted by connorkimbro Anyway, the way you said it, it sounds silly.

You should try hearing it from my POV.

quote: I think i gave up that position anyway. I forget what i think now. Or maybe i never have decided on this issue yet. dammit. . .

Then I apologize for misrepresenting you. I may have gotten your position confused with that of Rex Little.

Edit: Which it appears that I have done exactly that.

	27-03-2002 21:50									#27
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt MrFun, I should hope that the three circumstances that you state for situations where abortion is OK are pretty much universally considered OK by most people not part of the activist groups. It is any extension beyond that that is the most controversial.

Exactly -- if a woman wishes to have an abortion outside of any of the three conditions I listed, then that abortion should be classified as illegal.

A woman needs to have a compelling, significant reason to justify having an abortion -- and the three reasons I listed are the only ones that are legitimate in my opinion.

So if that area is not even argued about anymore in our society, then let me state my opinion on the status of the fetus itself.

To me, the fetus is not a fully-functional human being upon conception. I agree with the Roe vs Wade ruling on when a fetus can no longer be legally aborted.

Partial-birth abortion is disgusting to me.
I have only ONE justification that I believe is legitimate for partial-birth abortion, and that is, if the woman's life is threatened.

But partial-birth abortion should NEVER be carried out for either of the other two reasons (rape or incest).

	27-03-2002 22:02									#28
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" I should hope that the three circumstances that you state for situations where abortion is OK are pretty much universally considered OK by most people not part of the activist groups."

I am not part of an activist group and I don't believe it's OK or should be legal.

	27-03-2002 22:38									#29
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Even if the fetus isn't considered human, it's barbaric that it would be treated differently from any animal. It is in most cases illegal (and in my opinion immoral) to kill animals without meaningful justification. The simple fact that a fetus is less meaningful to society than a dog or cat would be ridiculous, if it weren't for the tragic consequences.

I agree with MrFun, but I would say that the limit for abortions should be when the heart and brain are functioning. I understand that a person is considered dead when those two organs stop working, so it makes sense to me at least that they should be considered alive when they begin working. This restriction on abortion would give unexpected mothers something on the order of a couple months to decide, although I could definitely be wrong on that.

What troubles me the most about abortion is the lack of responsibility it gives to the mother. If you're mature enough to have sex, you should be mature enough to use birth control. The pill has been available for something like fifty years now, is more or less safe, and very effective. It's a common sense solution for people who don't want to be pregnant, and I don't think anybody besides the Vatican is really opposed to it.

	27-03-2002 23:31									#30
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On the status of a fetus:

I believe that while a fetus is not a fully functional human, I still believe it is human.

I don't understand how it can not be considered as such, as it is a homo sapien, at it's earliest developmental stage.

If you remove all of the emotion involved in this argument you can see this point. A life form has developmental stages with in it's life cycle, (basic biology), from the embryo to the adult. The method of incubation is different for each species, but that doesn't change the fact that the life form is an individual.

As you can see this has nothing to do with brain activity, nor individual organs, nor ability to live independently. But the fact that the embryo, fetus, is still an individual life form.