28-03-2002 20:30									#1
	Beta or no, Civ is an excellent game. Support Apolyton

Let's face it, guys, we're complaining not about shortcomings in the game design, but about bad decisions by publishers. What Firaxis actually produced is excellent. It's not like they took anything away from us by making civ3.

And, you know what? We play it. I whine and ***** about civ3, then I go play another round. I play it even though my ailing laptop crashes every four turns and takes 5 minutes to clear the crashed game from memory. I've already put enough time into civ3 to beat a final fantasy game, and I'll put a lot more. I played civ2 almost until civ3 itself came out.

I've decided to abandon any complaints besides the important ones. Bugs, serious game flaws (if you consider not being able to sink ships a travesty, as I don't), and missing features (scenario editing, multiplayer), and perhaps even some handouts like the editor itself. It may be missing functionality, but it's preferable to editing rules.txt.

Any changes bigger than that I'll take to Clash, because that's the place for new ideas. Let's give firaxis some good, workable ideas for 1.18, and hopefully a future expansion including multiplayer and a scenario editor.


Either that or we can continue whining about warriors and tanks and playing the "I'm more old-school than you" game. It's our choice, after all.

	28-03-2002 20:55									#2
	Re: Beta or no, Civ is an excellent game. Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Kenjura ...What Firaxis actually produced is excellent. ...

Good, yes. Very good, maybe. Excellent? Definitely exagerated due to the need of patches asap!

quote: ... I play it even though my ailing laptop crashes every four turns and takes 5 minutes to clear the crashed game from memory.

You just a little sadomasochistic?

quote: I've already put enough time into civ3 to beat a final fantasy game, and I'll put a lot more. I played civ2 almost until civ3 itself came out.

Me too

quote: I've decided to abandon any complaints besides the important ones.

Aren't most of them?

quote: Let's give firaxis some good, workable ideas for 1.18

We've already done that!

Fair?
AJ

	28-03-2002 21:30									#3
	Re: Beta or no, Civ is an excellent game. Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

'Let's face it, guys, we're complaining not about shortcomings in the game design, but about bad decisions by publishers. What Firaxis actually produced is excellent. It's not like they took anything away from us by making civ3.'

Apart from our money.

'And, you know what? We play it.'

I only play about 2-3 sessions per week, even though I have a couple hours every night in which to play it. But I often go back to civ2.

'I played civ2 almost until civ3 itself came out.'

I still play it more than civ3. When MP comes out, maybe I'll play 3 more. I don't know yet.

'I've decided to abandon any complaints besides the important ones. Bugs, serious game flaws (if you consider not being able to sink ships a travesty, as I don't), and missing features (scenario editing, multiplayer), and perhaps even some handouts like the editor itself.'

All my complaints and many other people's here are generally important ones. I mean, it's not as if I'm complaining about the palace graphics or how the above city view looks unrealistic for a real city. I'm complaining about 'features' like the 4 turn tech cap, which really should not be in there (just means there is even less reason to go all out science), and the fact that until the late game it's not even worth researching on deity. Or the million other problems I've gone into before (some of which were thankfully fixed... like the retreating units). The fact that there is no proper scenario editor is almost unbelieveable too. If there was a cheat mode in the game, even that would let us create scenarios.

	28-03-2002 22:36									#4
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

you're missing the point. I've done plenty of complaining. I bought civ3 as soon as it came out, and I've known about apolyton ever since. I've perused the forums, and posted once or twice, but only recently has civ3 become so annoying that I've posted.

But with Clash, any ideas I have for lofty changes need not be addressed.

	29-03-2002 00:38									#5
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I wholeheartedly agreel; civ3 is an excellent game. There are improvments that I would like to make, but by and large, this game is a big fat GPA/Free time killer. My girlfriend knows that when I am not at school, or with her, or at work, I am playing Civ3; she doesn't even have to ask...

Yes, I'll agree that the game isn't historicaly perfect, but each time I see that, I have to think "gameplay"; would this game be more fun if it was more accurate? The answer is almost always "no"...

As for concreat suggestions for 1.18f, I would love to be able to select bombard units' targeting priorities. Right now, they tend to go after buildings, and I want to hit units. I would love use my F-15s to really _nail_ troops and walk into cities with minimal opposition. Right now, I can bombard a city into oblivion and not hit a unit(!). This may be realisitic, but is it fun?

Also, I would like to have bombard units not take a movment to bombard. Let their "rate of fire" be how many times they can bombard in a given turn. This way, I can have a battleship that can move 20 times, but only bombard 3 times.

These are, of course, minor gripes...

	29-03-2002 04:11									#6
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I think the majority of the complaints (well, the sensible ones) aren't that it's not a good game, but that it COULD have been a much, much better one. Part of this is due to unrealistic expectations, and part of it is due to the fact that, well... Firaxis really dropped the ball on some counts (some people would say "many counts", but I'm only including the out-and-out DUH mistakes, not controversial gameplay decisions which still have some more or less valid reasons behind them).

Still, when all is said and done, I got my forty bucks worth. There are many games which do much, much worse, and only a select few which do better; it's a bit disappointing that Civ3 isn't part of this latter category, but it does look like it will get better before even getting into pay-for expansions.

	29-03-2002 10:14									#7
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: the game isn't historicaly perfect

Thank goodness . . .

	29-03-2002 22:00									#8
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Random Passerby I think the majority of the complaints (well, the sensible ones) aren't that it's not a good game, but that it COULD have been a much, much better one. Part of this is due to unrealistic expectations, and part of it is due to the fact that, well... Firaxis really dropped the ball on some counts (some people would say "many counts", but I'm only including the out-and-out DUH mistakes, not controversial gameplay decisions which still have some more or less valid reasons behind them). Still, when all is said and done, I got my forty bucks worth. There are many games which do much, much worse, and only a select few which do better; it's a bit disappointing that Civ3 isn't part of this latter category, but it does look like it will get better before even getting into pay-for expansions.

Well said , also my feelings:



AJ

	29-03-2002 22:14									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I feel this is all part of a little thing called "Over Expectations". Most sequals are hyped up and somtimes fall hard when released. Civ3 is no different. Considering Civ2 and it's XPs, you'd think all that and more would be on that CD.

I feel that there could only be so much in a CD (even duel CDs like most games today). No gaming companies (that I know of) are releasing their games on DVD formatt, since they're are still people who don't have a DVD drive yet (give it another five years).

The number of patches released for this game is also somthing I consider to be a bad thing. Except for one other game (Quake3), they either game with no patch needed or required a single stupid Multiplayer patch ready to download as soon as the game hits the store shelves. I could be wrong with gaming companies today, I usualy buy a game or two a year.

Do I like Civ3?
Yes.

Do I think its the best Strategy ever?
No, I tip my hat for Rebellion.

Could it have been made better?
Name me a game that couldn't use a little extra.

Will I attack and raze Firaxis HQ?
It depends on how many patches are release. Perhaps when 2.18f is released.

Am I civ3 hater?
No, I'm in the middle.

Will I stop asking myself questions?
Yes.

	30-03-2002 00:20									#10
	Suffering from ads?

Everything about Civ3 is a matter of taste.

The rest is literature (sometimes bad literature...).

Alex.

	30-03-2002 07:33									#11
	Full PM-box? Change here!

As a game on it's own, it is good. But people tend to compare it to civ2 for some reason. I don't think one should have anything to do with the other. Civ3 isn't really a sequal.