29-03-2002 21:23									#31
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Well US shouldn't be blamed for their Taliban laws, should they?

	29-03-2002 21:24									#32
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I think we need to make a distinction between political crimes and other crimes when we talk about regimes such as China's.

The US doesn't put people to death or torture, etc. for political positions that they hold, but rather for acts that do or are conspiring to do. I think the laws themselves would be acceptable in any country. China does otherwise, where these distinctions aren't made.

France has a legitimate interest here. They can and should lobby hard for their position. But realistically, as our system is structured, the lobbying is probably not going to be effective. So France has to make a hard choice of whether the common interest is served by cooperating with American law enforcement officials or not. France is in a tough position, because they have competing interests here.

	29-03-2002 21:27									#33
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quote: Originally posted by DanS The US doesn't put people to death or torture, etc. for political positions that they hold, but rather for acts that do or are conspiring to do.

Now there's an interesting quote....

	29-03-2002 21:31									#34
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quote: Originally posted by DanS The US doesn't put people to death or torture, etc. for political positions that they hold, but rather for acts that do or are conspiring to do.

No. Also for political positions.

	29-03-2002 21:34									#35
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc OK, if the American was assured of a fair trial, you can certainly feel free to remind me of my statement.

Whilst I don't doubt the integrity of the US judicial system, how can we be sure that this man will have a fair trial? The fact that many are calling for the DP or calling for the DP not to be used, before the trial has begun makes me think that many presume him guilty to begin with. Unintentional prejudices exist given the very nature of the crime that was commited on 11/9 (9/11 as you would say).

	29-03-2002 21:37									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin Well US shouldn't be blamed for their Taliban laws, should they?

Stop being purposefully absurd.

Roland: No, but France has a legitimite interest in the case from consular protection. What's the problem with that ?

The problem is that the right to consular protection only allows a State to defend the rights of thier citizens. No allegation that Moussaoui's are being violated has been made in any of France's threats or lobbying efforts.

	29-03-2002 21:39									#37
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Stop being purposefully absurd.

Sorry, It's not me being absurd but life itself

	29-03-2002 22:06									#38
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Personnaly I don't care about this guy. I choose his life and have to face to the consequence.

What I doubt, that he will correctly trialed. What I think, You will trial him and then execute him. If you don't understand what is wrong is the previous sentence, nobody can help you.

Then if some people in France think that they have the right to prevent the death penalty for this guy, wtf ?

Such thread title shows only a sad picture of a conceited and self-sufficient USA.

	29-03-2002 22:09									#39
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quote: Originally posted by ZoboZeWarrior Such thread title shows only a sad picture of a conceited and self-sufficient USA.

I would like to be able to say it's just Dinodoc but...

	29-03-2002 23:06									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin Whilst I don't doubt the integrity of the US judicial system, how can we be sure that this man will have a fair trial? The fact that many are calling for the DP or calling for the DP not to be used, before the trial has begun makes me think that many presume him guilty to begin with. Unintentional prejudices exist given the very nature of the crime that was commited on 11/9 (9/11 as you would say).

No, they're saying what the punishment will be if he is convicted. The same thing that happens with all prosecutions.

	29-03-2002 23:22									#41
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Surely that decision should be made after the facts are presented and his involvement known? Normally the nature of the crime (rather than the charge) as presented at trial would prescribe the punishment, wouldn't it?

So how can the punishment be decided before the facts are known unless people assume they know them already. Its not as simple as Conspirator = DP, Non-conspirator = freedom as people seem to be saying. Is there no middle ground where he was a minor participant and thus guilty of acrime but DP woudl be an overkill (forgive the apparent pun).

No-one has even mentioned how many and what charges are being presented, just what punishment is due!!!

	30-03-2002 00:06									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin Surely that decision should be made after the facts are presented and his involvement known? Normally the nature of the crime (rather than the charge) as presented at trial would prescribe the punishment, wouldn't it?

Well, no. Upon conviction, they go to a penalty phase. The jury hears arguments from the prosecution as to what they want the punishment to be. The defense does their thing. Usually, there's at least two choices for the penalty (the Andrea Yates trial for example, the one who drowned her children. They could've given her the death penalty or life in prision). The jury then weighs the crime and decides the penalty.


If you're charged with first degree murder, they're either going to push for the DP or life in prision. It's known before hand; this is no different.


But, just because they ask for the death penalty, doesn't mean they're going to get it.

	30-03-2002 00:16									#43
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quote: The jury then weighs the crime and decides the penalty.

But they would decide based on the particular circumstances, not the blanket statement of the crime of "X". Why then are people pushing for the DP before the details of involvement are known.

Do prosecutors normally push for a sentence before they have reviewed all the evidence. In this case they obviously don't have all the evidence- the French have the a large amount of evidence that they are withholding at the present time.

	30-03-2002 00:33									#44
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if france refuse to disclose any evidence regarding the alleged crimes commited by the guy, the US can't convict him in a fair trial. Seems the US has two options. Either make sure the guy doesn't get executed if convicted, or refuse to give the guy a fair trial.

	30-03-2002 01:13									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin quote: The jury then weighs the crime and decides the penalty. But they would decide based on the particular circumstances, not the blanket statement of the crime of "X". Why then are people pushing for the DP before the details of involvement are known. Do prosecutors normally push for a sentence before they have reviewed all the evidence. In this case they obviously don't have all the evidence- the French have the a large amount of evidence that they are withholding at the present time.

Well yeah. They have prosecutorial evidence, the whole reason they're bringing charges up. Surely you've seen any number of the US cop shows (Homicide, NYPD Blue, Law and Order)...?

When the defense presents their evidence, they may decide to change the sentence they are going after.

quote: if france refuse to disclose any evidence regarding the alleged crimes commited by the guy, the US can't convict him in a fair trial. Seems the US has two options. Either make sure the guy doesn't get executed if convicted, or refuse to give the guy a fair trial.

Well of course, the US couldn't possibly have their own evidence to convict him with.

They must feel they have very good evidence, otherwise they wouldn't be going for the DP.

	30-03-2002 01:27									#46
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quote: Next time China wants to try an American for a capital crime, and wants to invoke the DP I will remind you of that statement.

Exactly.

And you people have wierd ideas about the Singapore caining. All I remember is outrage from Americans that this poor Ami boy was being cained for something so small.

--

Anyway, SD: Usually in the US, the prosecution decides (before the case) what the maximum penalty they will push for if the person is convicted. So, the prosecution can decide to push for 2-5 years in prision rather than 2 years and community service, in the case of sexual assualt, say.

	30-03-2002 01:40									#47
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Euros, they hate us and rate us because they ain't us.

I'm opposed to the death penalty, but mostly because I think that there are harsher ways of dealing with people, and because I view life as being a sacred right.

Still, this is just another example of how the French are our most useless ally/subject state.

	30-03-2002 02:11									#48
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quote: Well of course, the US couldn't possibly have their own evidence to convict him with.

frankly, they don't. all the crucial evidence in this case in the hands of the french authorities.

	30-03-2002 02:45									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Felch X Euros, they hate us and rate us because they ain't us.

Boy, you hit the nail right on the head with that one, didn't you?

	30-03-2002 03:12									#50
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If france is against the DP. Great, then they have the right to not do it. But they dont have the right to tell us we cant. Thats just meddling in things thats none of there (frances) business.

	30-03-2002 05:20									#51
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perhaps we should guillotine him.

That seems appropriate for a Frenchman.

Maybe France wont mind so much then(not that we care what the French want).

The hypocracy , oh the hypocracy.

	30-03-2002 05:38									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Next time China wants to try an American for a capital crime, and wants to invoke the DP I will remind you of that statement. Exactly. And you people have wierd ideas about the Singapore caining. All I remember is outrage from Americans that this poor Ami boy was being cained for something so small.

Beat his ass and then let's use the cane on some other young punks. Everybody I know thought it sounded like a good way to handle a delinquent.

	30-03-2002 05:49									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus frankly, they don't. all the crucial evidence in this case in the hands of the french authorities.

If you knew anything about legal procedure, you would be fairly smart to have evidence BEFORE you charge somebody. If you don't you will be laughed out of the courthouse.

France has a perfect right to lobby for his life, just as the US has a perfect right to say NO.

And you can tell all the evidence is in the hands of the french? how?

Because, as usual, ther hands are over their heads?

	30-03-2002 06:02									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Felch X Euros, they hate us and rate us because they ain't us.

Oh an american that uses his own country as a shield to protect his own insecurity, what a novel idea.

	30-03-2002 06:06									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Evil_Eric_4 perhaps we should guillotine him. That seems appropriate for a Frenchman.

Off off-topic here, but I remeber thinking that brat should get the cane and I imagine the only reason anyone cared was because he was rich and white as I don't recall any human rights activists sobbing over some Singaporian (?) kid getting the cane.

And on a more personal note... There's something about the French that just... well... annoys me. It's not like I've ever been there, but the first word that comes to mind when I think of the French is annoying. Cultural conditioning perhaps? Sorry Zobe. Maybe they're like the guy in class that everyone likes to pick on in a sort of we-like-you-so-we-pick-on-you sort of way? Help me out here folks.

:waiting for the annoying American response:

	30-03-2002 07:03									#56
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The fact of the matter is that while American media, international human rights organizations and more than a few celebrities tried to turn it into a "don't beat the poor American" circus, the American public simply wasn't buying it.

	30-03-2002 07:20									#57
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quote: Originally posted by WhiteElephants And on a more personal note... There's something about the French that just... well... annoys me. It's not like I've ever been there, but the first word that comes to mind when I think of the French is annoying. Cultural conditioning perhaps? Sorry Zobe. Maybe they're like the guy in class that everyone likes to pick on in a sort of we-like-you-so-we-pick-on-you sort of way? Help me out here folks.

Soldiers from the USA and common wealth who where fighting in europe during the world wars wanted someone to blame for their misery, and france (who they where defending/liberating) was a popular choice. It's spiraled out from there becoming one of those "cool to hate" things.


In other words, it's typical nationalist bull crap.

	30-03-2002 08:48									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld Soldiers from the USA and common wealth who where fighting in europe during the world wars wanted someone to blame for their misery, and france (who they where defending/liberating) was a popular choice. It's spiraled out from there becoming one of those "cool to hate" things. In other words, it's typical nationalist bull crap.

Well, they've certainly gotten their nose bloodied more than once in that long forgotten 20th century. Let's hope this century is a bit more painless for those guys, eh?

	30-03-2002 11:04									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus if france refuse to disclose any evidence regarding the alleged crimes commited by the guy, the US can't convict him in a fair trial.

Why is that? Don't you don't think that the evidence that we get from Germany and Malaysia might be able to convict him?

	31-03-2002 03:12									#60
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I heard an interesting analysis on this from Ron Kuby yesterday. Apparently, one reson a prosecutor would want to say he is going for capital punishment is that the court would then select a Capital Case Jury. When a jury for a capital case is selected, prospective jurors may be removed if they have anti-death penalty views; this is because they may allow these views to color their judgement on the guilt or innocence of the defendant. One result of this is that persons with socially liberal POVs get knocked off of the jury, increasing the number of socially conservative (and more likely to convict on the same evidence) jurors.

Last edited by The Mad Monk on 31-03-2002 at 03:30