29-03-2002 09:38									#1
	France makes demands and the US laughs hysterically Remove this text

quote: France demands no death penalty for terror suspect France urged the United States on Wednesday to remove the threat of the death penalty for the first suspect indicted in the United States for conspiring with Osama bin Laden (news – web sites) on the September 11 attacks. Justice Minister Marylise Lebranchu said France, which along with other European Union (news – web sites) partners has no death penalty, could not accept such a punishment for Zacarias Moussaoui, a Frenchman of Moroccan descent. "Of course, no person benefiting from French consular protection should be executed," she told RMC radio. Separately, a Foreign Ministry spokesman confirmed France would take steps to ensure he was not executed if found guilty by a U.S. federal court. "Yes, that stems from our general position on the death penalty," the spokesman told a regular news briefing. France scrapped the death penalty in 1981. Moussaoui, 33, took flying lessons in the United States and officials there believe he may have been preparing to join one of four hijacking teams. Almost 3,300 people died in the attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon.

I wonder what the French are thinking. Do they really think that we need thier permission to apply domestic laws to a criminal caught in our borders? FYI, the death penalty will be sought in the case. Any guesses on what the effects in France will be?

	29-03-2002 09:42									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I don't see where the 'demands' are.

It seems they are trying to lobby us to not put him to death... but no demands.

	29-03-2002 09:48									#3
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I don't see where the 'demands' are.

Blame the title of the article.

You might try to actually answering the questions I asked rather than nit-picking.

	29-03-2002 09:50									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I'd read that when France ended the use of the death penalty, the majority of their population still supported it. I wonder how much money France has spent to get that to change over the years.

	29-03-2002 09:51									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Good point Dino It amazes me that countries tell others how to act at the same time whail with self indulgent actions at a whim...

	29-03-2002 09:52									#6
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc You might try to actually answering the questions I asked rather than nit-picking.

The questions are irrelevant once you figure out the article says they are lobbying the US to commute the sentance if it comes back death... or not issue death at all.

	29-03-2002 09:58									#7
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui they are lobbying the US to commute the sentance if it comes back death... or not issue death at all.

The question is why is it any of thier concern? We caught the man in the continental US. The French opinion is of little or no legal import in cases such as this.

	29-03-2002 10:01									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

From a radio program I was listening to the other night (Bachelor and Alexander on WABC, for those in the NYC area), France is applying pressure, based on non-cooperation.

A lot of the evidence on this guy is based on French police and other government sources, and without those sources, there is, effectively, little or no case.

When you add that to this:

quote: Separately, a Foreign Ministry spokesman confirmed France would take steps to ensure he was not executed if found guilty by a U.S. federal court.

The picture snaps into sharp focus.

	29-03-2002 10:02									#9
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc The question is why is it any of thier concern? We caught the man in the continental US. The French opinion is of little or no legal import in cases such as this.

Europeans always try to get non-death sentences for their citizens here.


They seem to think they can influence us in some ways regarding capital punishment.

	29-03-2002 11:11									#10
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Well we iced McVey. It's not an anti-French thing. We just don't like killers.

	29-03-2002 12:25									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I am against capital punishment. I prefer life imprisonment in hard labour camps without parole

If Moussaoui is found guilty, he should be punished. But what is he guilty of? What is this conspiracy charge thing?

	29-03-2002 14:47									#12
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger If Moussaoui is found guilty, he should be punished. But what is he guilty of? What is this conspiracy charge thing?

That's an interesting question. Most of the 20 highjackers didn't know what was going to happen until after they boarded the planes.

	29-03-2002 15:55									#13
	Re: France makes demands and the US laughs hysterically Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I wonder what the French are thinking. Do they really think that we need thier permission to apply domestic laws to a criminal caught in our borders? FYI, the death penalty will be sought in the case. Any guesses on what the effects in France will be?

Read your quoted article again.
Find keywords "consular protection"
Anything else ?

	29-03-2002 16:14									#14
	Put an end to popups!

Also, did the guy actually do anything? How can you kill someone who hasn't actually commited anything? What's with the capital punishment anyway, who is it going to help?

	29-03-2002 17:12									#15
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc The question is why is it any of thier concern? We caught the man in the continental US. The French opinion is of little or no legal import in cases such as this.

Next time China wants to try an American for a capital crime, and wants to invoke the DP I will remind you of that statement.

	29-03-2002 17:27									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

---
"Ces maudits Français !" ...

	29-03-2002 17:29									#17
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I think that happens all the time, with Americans who are caught with drugs.

We don't say a word, other than standard legal council. Rightly so.

	29-03-2002 17:37									#18
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I second Sagacious Dolphins statement. The man in question is a French citizen and that makes it to a issue for the French goverment. Do you remember that american outcry when a brat was about to get whipped with a cane in a southasian country (don't remember the country, Singapore, Burma?)? If THAT was an american issue this is an french issue.

	29-03-2002 17:52									#19
	Increase the size of your Attachments

IIRC, most of that 'outcry' was Americans complaining because we couldn't do that to the punks here.

	29-03-2002 18:03									#20
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by laurentius Also, did the guy actually do anything? How can you kill someone who hasn't actually commited anything? What's with the capital punishment anyway, who is it going to help?

Republicans and they're intelligent kids, which feel that they have more power
when they kill someone? Ah, just kill those. Evil terrorists = France.

Nuke France. After you've nuked Iraq.

	29-03-2002 19:33									#21
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Tuomerehu Republicans and they're intelligent kids, which feel that they have more power when they kill someone? Ah, just kill those. Evil terrorists = France. Nuke France. After you've nuked Iraq.

Just be sure to send over all those hot maids first .

	29-03-2002 19:54									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc You might try to actually answering the questions I asked rather than nit-picking.

Never thought I'd here DinoDoc say that.

	29-03-2002 20:57									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin Next time China wants to try an American for a capital crime, and wants to invoke the DP I will remind you of that statement.

OK, if the American was assured of a fair trial, you can certainly feel free to remind me of my statement.

Krop: Do you remember that american outcry when a brat was about to get whipped with a cane in a southasian country (don't remember the country, Singapore, Burma?)?

IIRC, Most of what you heard coming from America was support for caning the punk. I don't think that the government ever took an official position on that matter.

Roland: What are you talking about? I'm not understanding you here.

	29-03-2002 21:05									#24
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Most of what you heard coming from America ...

So you actually know what I heard? Well I guess that explains those voices in my head.

Seriously; what I heard it was an outcry and an official statement... Countries usually get involved somewhat when one of their citizens get arrested, I do know the swedish govt often do. Not killing a French citizen might good for relations. Particulary since this man didn't actually do anything so the death penalty seems to be overkill in either case.

	29-03-2002 21:06									#25
	Tired of ads?

I have no problem (actually I have) with america murdering its own citizens.
But when a European is going to be trialed in the US, death penalty is a no - go.

	29-03-2002 21:08									#26
	Increase the size of your Attachments

The EU should push hard the US to abolish such barbaric acts.

	29-03-2002 21:10									#27
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

"Do they really think that we need thier permission to apply domestic laws to a criminal caught in our borders?"

No, but France has a legitimite interest in the case from consular protection. What's the problem with that ?

	29-03-2002 21:10									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

In regards to punishments, I'm outraged that US soldier only got 32 months for rape in Okinawa. Seems awfully lenient.


As to the previous questions, there are a few US conspiracy laws that allow for the death penalty.


Personally, I'd rather him get life (if he's convicted) in a Federal prision. To deny his martyrdom...plus, he'd probably get shanked within 5 years after the guards tell the general population who he is.

Last edited by Kyle on 29-03-2002 at 21:20

	29-03-2002 21:13									#29
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I think in the interest of inter-national relations we should honor france's request.

	29-03-2002 21:17									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin Not killing a French citizen might good for relations.

Not threatening us for following domestic law might be good for relations as well. Anyway, even though that the government is seeking the death penalty he isn't guaranteed to recieve it. The jury will be the final arbitar at this level.

quote: Particulary since this man didn't actually do anything so the death penalty seems to be overkill in either case.

As far as I can tell, conspirators are still liable for the actions of the conspiracy even if they are prevented from taking an active part in the final part of the plan through a quirk of events.