29-03-2002 18:54									#1
	What do you think? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Hi, I want to know which option people feel is the best one at this present time, taking into account that both games were pushed out by their respective publishers a little too early(IMHO).Prices quoted are in GB sterling(£'s) from HMV uk http://www.hmv.co.uk so what's the best value?

	29-03-2002 21:41									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

OK, I voted for CTP2 because that's what I'm playing right now. I fully expect to go back to playing Civ3 (at least primarily) once I start to burn out on CTP2 (which will take a while). The retail price really isn't an object for me. If I were willing to wait for Civ3 to be remaindered I'd be able to get it just as cheaply...so an answer might be to play CTP2 until the price of Civ3 comes down.

For me, the real cost is the opportunity cost of the time spent playing. I'd play both games NOW if I had the time.

They're different games. If your primary interest is in wargames, CTP2 wins, hands down. If your interest is in new concepts in turn-based strategy gaming, I'd pick Civ3 due to Culture, diplomacy, and the ability--with good play--to turn AI states into vassals or clients.

"Out the door too soon" -- well I've never played a computer game that wasn't, or a computer app, for that matter. On the one hand, the marketing department flogs the programmers for unrealistic time estimates, then tries to hold them to those estimates. Eventually somebody needs cash flow badly enough to overcome the objections of the programmers, and out the product goes. Civ2, Black & White, Merchant Prince 2, Daggerfall...I can't remember the last game I played that did not require a patch. All the business apps require service releases and service packs and security patches, etc. etc.

In the end, we the users are the real beta testers...as are mine, unfortunately.

	30-03-2002 01:42									#3
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Thanks all who voted!
Herman i'll have to take your word that the diplomacy is better in Civ3, and that culture actually works
Maybe when it has multiplayer i'll buy it and find out!
I can't quite remember when patches started to become the norm? But most of my early game experience was patch free
I wanted to do this poll here first to get a bit of objectivity(the vote for Civ3 makes me feel vindicated), before trying it in the Civ3 general forum. I voted for CTP2 - for £5 and after modding, you get a lot of game time for your money!(I bought a second copy because it was too cheap to resist). And judgeing by the almost battle weary Civ3 forum i would like to throw them a crumb of comfort
£30 for a dissapointment you can't mod enough but is still presently officially supported..................................

£5 for a dissapoinment you can mod extensively and has lots of good Mods already but isn't officially supported anymore............

	30-03-2002 02:46									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Well, seeing how one game has my name in the credits while the other one doesn't, that's not really a choice, now is it?

	30-03-2002 03:16									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Everyone has a choice,........I think you probably chose the right one in this instance (you didn't vote Civ3? did you? )
I might give this poll a few days here and see if it can be moved to the Civ3 forum or just do a new one there? Im not sure what would work best(bearing in mind day old posts in the Civ3 forum sink like lead and i don't know if this was moved if the date of initial posting would still count ).Suggestions?

	30-03-2002 03:28									#6
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Let me answer your first question with another question: is my name in the credits of Civ3? There's your answer

The thing that counts is not the date of initial posting but the date of the last post. In any case, you should create a new poll in Civ3 because you're not gonna get it moved. Even if you post in Civ3, it's probably going to get moved to the Apolyton/Community forum, where these sort of polls are supposed to go (don't worry, I'll tolerate this one here though ).
But I think the results of the post will be predictable either way: over here (almost) everyone will vote for CtP2, in Civ3 (almost) everyone will vote for Civ3...

	30-03-2002 04:10									#7
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Locutus Let me answer your first question with another question: is my name in the credits of Civ3? There's your answer

I guess some people have more of a choice than others , Still would you vote for Civ3 if it was the other way round?(in that your name was in the Civ3 credits BUT it was still released way before being ready - much more so than even CTP2 it seems?) now that's got to be a hard one to call

I thought i was being on Topic(i'm not very good at this ). I'm really trying to get at the point that both games were relesed on an unsuspecting buying public without being really anywhere near playable as advertised on the web-site/gamebox. This is IMHO wrong. And the end result is we have one of the best loved/followed genres in a bit of a mess.
CTP2 probably missed out most - from what i've seen yourself/Hex/Dale/Wes/, and all the rest of you talented folks, manage to get out of this game.....well it's quite amazing. I do occasionally play it vanilla style to remind me how much you have all improved it!And this without the source code/exe. Activision could have cleaned up on this game if they gave it some time - i'm utterly convinced of it.
And now we have Civ3.........well it just seems a mess really(i have never played it but i do follow the Forum over there.). So it was a slightly ironic poll really........trying to show how cheap Civ3 might be in about 12-18months time? i.e. if a game isn't done right it's not worth doing, and hopefully the publishers will get it through their thick skulls?
Sorry a bit rantish
Is it really not on topic?.....not even slightly?im worried i'm never going to get the hang of this posting thang

	30-03-2002 04:17									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Choices, Choices I vote for the beta that I already own. With this one I can do a lot more than just beta testing, I can also fixing. BTW, I just realized that CTP2 AI needs a good unit stacker, a good unit out of the city pusher, a transport unit loader and a unit detrencher/from the road mover.

-Martin

	30-03-2002 05:13									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Sorry, DP.

	30-03-2002 05:13									#10
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by child of Thor I guess some people have more of a choice than others , Still would you vote for Civ3 if it was the other way round?(in that your name was in the Civ3 credits BUT it was still released way before being ready - much more so than even CTP2 it seems?) now that's got to be a hard one to call

Well, if I was only in Civ3's credits (and not in CtP2's), I would definitely vote for Civ3 If I was in both or neither, I would go for CtP2, as I find modding to be more fun than actually playing and you can't mod Civ3...
Happy now?

quote: I thought i was being on Topic(i'm not very good at this ).

As far as I'm concerned you are, but the owners of the site have the policy that all game-comparison threads should go in the Apolyton/Community forum (or Other Games forum if none of the choices is a Civ game). No, it doesn't really make sense to me either but they're not paying me to make sense of it all

quote: I'm really trying to get at the point that both games were relesed on an unsuspecting buying public without being really anywhere near playable as advertised on the web-site/gamebox. This is IMHO wrong.

Well, I couldn't agree more but: welcome to the world. That's how things work these days, as much as I hate to admit it. Very little games are released (almost) flawless, only a few companies (MoO3's company, Blizzard) seem to care about quality.

quote: CTP2 probably missed out most - from what i've seen yourself/Hex/Dale/Wes/, and all the rest of you talented folks, manage to get out of this game.....well it's quite amazing.

Well, thanks but the reason for this is not because Activision screwed up (which they did, of course), but because they did a great job on making the game moddable. The out of the box game should have been of the quality of the Apolyton Pack (maybe with an even stronger AI). All the features that MedMod, Cradle and other mods/scenarios add are extras that noone should have expected Activision to include in the default game. There's no such thing as the 'ultimate game', there are always more features to add, more bugs to fix. Contrary to Firaxis, Activision was smart enough to realize this and allow the gamers to make additions/improvements themselves.

quote: Is it really not on topic?.....not even slightly?im worried i'm never going to get the hang of this posting thang

Don't worry, you're doing fine. It's just that Markos moves in mysterious ways

	31-03-2002 00:35									#11
	Put an end to popups!

Thanks for your answers Locutus, and for putting up with my newbie mistakes

now how much do you think Activision will want for that source code

	31-03-2002 03:14									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by child of Thor now how much do you think Activision will want for that source code

More than we all can spare

	02-04-2002 00:49									#13
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

CTP2 even if it cost 100 times more !!!!!!!!

PS: If i have all that money of course.

	02-04-2002 10:22									#14
	Tired of ads?

It seems like CTP2 has taken a commanding lead in the poll.

	02-04-2002 15:11									#15
	Got spare money?

well i posted in the civ3 forum a couple of days ago, so i guess i'm not going to get much more feedback. The result's weren't quite as cut and dry as i was expecting. 39 votes in total from both polls(not alot!), and at this point i declare CTP2 the overall winner with a total 21 votes compared to Civ3's 18. I know that probably CTP2's votes might have come from the same people(voted on both poll's). Still even if i cut those votes in two(call it 11), it's still not a complete whitewash.
On reflection the only distinct result from the poll was the general lack of intrest from the Civ3 forum.I get the feeling that either

a)CTP2 and Activision left a very bad/unforgivable impression
b)Its too hard for the 'average' user to mod CTP2 succsesfully
c)Civ3 fans, even though generaly upset by Civ3, don't give a monkeys about CTP2.

The first one i can accept(i was one of those very angry people).
The second does really seem to be a problem for some people, they try a mod it doesn't work they give up.
The third one i can't understand - if you like the 'civ' genre and are a real fan of it, then IMHO you will try all varients to experience as much as you can, after all CivII though a classic does get a bit samey once you've completed it an deity level for the 10th time?(which i haven't ).
Thus concludes my first Poll. Ah well they can only get better

Last edited by child of Thor on 02-04-2002 at 18:47

	02-04-2002 21:34									#16
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by child of Thor I get the feeling that either a)CTP2 and Activision left a very bad/unforgivable impression b)Its too hard for the 'average' user to mod CTP2 succsesfully c)Civ3 fans, even though generaly upset by Civ3, don't give a monkeys about CTP2. The first one i can accept(i was one of those very angry people). The second does really seem to be a problem for some people, they try a mod it doesn't work they give up. The third one i can't understand - if you like the 'civ' genre and are a real fan of it, then IMHO you will try all varients to experience as much as you can, after all CivII though a classic does get a bit samey once you've completed it an deity level for the 10th time?(which i haven't )

Hmm...likely some truth in all of those, except perhaps the second. It's not so much that it's too hard, as that most players have no idea that it CAN be modded, and if they knew, they wouldn't have the time or inclination to try. That's not to say it's easy! I've seen the bloodstained fingerprints of Dale, Wes, Hex, (et al) on the excellent mods.

On #1, I'm not sure how many Civ2 players even tried CTP2. I didn't until recently, then got drawn in because of one friend who loves CTP2. So I never knew how pissed off people were at Activision until long after the dust settled. I was happily engrossed in the challenges I found here on the Apolyton Civ2 forum. But even with only one city, winning at Deity had become routine, because I/we knew how to take full advantage of the game system. I take no credit for being able to do so; I learned from the Masters here.

I agree in theory that Civ players might like to play a lot of variants, but there are only so many days in the hour. I deliberately skipped Alpha Centauri because I couldn't cope with another time sink. I never even considered CTP2 (and I don't think I even heard of CTP). But eventually I tired of Civ2, and found myself waiting for Civ3, and I'm one of those who LIKES Civ3. I'm just busy with CTP2 right now.

	03-04-2002 06:35									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Ey Hermann,

You better don't try out Alpha Centauri then, I have been addicted to it for a horribly long time, causing me uncountable sleepless nights, because I only wanted to do 'one turn more' ...

Well, having the same now with CTP2 ...

But, like you, I am a late discoverer of CTP2, only recently bought and started playing it.

	03-04-2002 17:43									#18
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Hermann the Lombard Hmm...likely some truth in all of those, except perhaps the second. It's not so much that it's too hard, as that most players have no idea that it CAN be modded, and if they knew, they wouldn't have the time or inclination to try.

Well it just seems that when you get some discussion on CTP1 or 2 in the Civ3 forum you will almost always get the 'Tried modding, never got it to work ' post. I think whenever anyone from here posts over there praising the virtues of CTP2 ,modding is nearly always mentioned.

quote: On #1, I'm not sure how many Civ2 players even tried CTP2. I didn't until recently, then got drawn in because of one friend who loves CTP2. So I never knew how pissed off people were at Activision until long after the dust settled.

Alot of the civ 'Vets' seem to carry a grudge against CTP2 / Activision.I can't blame them, but CTP2 is now not a dissapointment, the modders have made it a great game and the best bit of all is that it will always evolve.

quote: But eventually I tired of Civ2, and found myself waiting for Civ3, and I'm one of those who LIKES Civ3. I'm just busy with CTP2 right now.

Well you might have a unique perspective around here, which is a good thing! I'll have to wait till i get Civ3(i need MP), and glad to have you around here

As to time, i must have too much(you are talking to a regular CTP2 multiplayer ).

Eagle when i got a bit more time(!) i'll try Alpha Centauri, heard lots of good things about it.

	04-04-2002 03:45									#19
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Eagle Ey Hermann, You better don't try out Alpha Centauri then, I have been addicted to it for a horribly long time, causing me uncountable sleepless nights, because I only wanted to do 'one turn more' ...

PRECISELY why I haven't tried it!

	04-04-2002 03:49									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by child of Thor Well it just seems that when you get some discussion on CTP1 or 2 in the Civ3 forum you will almost always get the 'Tried modding, never got it to work ' post. I think whenever anyone from here posts over there praising the virtues of CTP2 ,modding is nearly always mentioned.

Hmm...come to think of it, my friend Mark (who loves the CTP2 Alexander and Hannibal scenarios), said the same thing; he could never get the mods to work. I'm trying to get him to try Cradle now, and I've given him the step-by-step instructions to get everything loaded. Let's see: Game, Patch, 'Poly, 12/19, Victory (sorry Wes, one thing at a time).

Seems like all the messages over here mention modding, in both sections. We all know why, of course!

	04-04-2002 05:41									#21
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Ey Hermann,

What you were just saying about the step to step instructions about installing the mods, ...

You wouldn't have any idea about the questions I posted in another thread ? Pls have a look at the 'mp resync problems' thread.

Am having problems with Medmod under win2k.

Tnx

	05-04-2002 02:10									#22
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Hermann the Lombard Hmm...come to think of it, my friend Mark (who loves the CTP2 Alexander and Hannibal scenarios), said the same thing; he could never get the mods to work. I'm trying to get him to try Cradle now, and I've given him the step-by-step instructions to get everything loaded. Let's see: Game, Patch, 'Poly, 12/19, Victory (sorry Wes, one thing at a time).

Well, if you see *anyone* anywhere mention that they're having problems installing CtP2 mods, don't hesitate to lead them to these forums or tell them to contact me or one of the other guys around here (or tell us where you saw this and we'll go to them). Usually the problems are pretty easy to solve but if you don't have much experience with it, it can be tricky and overwhelming to do so. Here we encounter such problems on an almost daily basis and I know I for one am more than happy to help out wherever possible.

	05-04-2002 03:11									#23
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Here here Locutus! Me too. Any questions I can help with, gladly answered.