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Ethelred
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quote:
I honestly don;t know where you got the Mycenaeans from...( |
Acheans ARE Greeks. The Mycenaen Greeks are named after the Greek city of Mycenae.
Now who led the Greeks that attacked Troy AKA Illium and Wilusa?
Agamemenon.
Where did Agamemnon come from?
Mycenae.
Athens is Greek. It was never conquered by the Dorians or anyone else till Sparta. So are you now saying that Athens wasn't Greek?
Acheans=Greeks wether the name was used early or not.
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read Trojan Women by Euripides too. |
A fictionalized account of a fictionlized account. Written long after the fact by someone that wanted to entertain.
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ANd when I said that it was teh Achaeans who attacked you said that they were the descentants of Mycenaens... |
I said no such thing.
Fourth time around for this.
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Same people. Just as Troy is also called Illium and maybe Wilusa. Assuming that anyone did actually conquer Troy. Agamemnon was the King of Mycenae. |
There is not one mention of descendents there. I said the same people. Just different terms.
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you are getting me confused, or are you? |
You are self confusing. I don't need to help you do that.
I may be wrong on some things but so far what you have done is reinvent what I said, change the meaning, and then disagree with what you think I said.
Please do try to stick with what I actualy said. I makes for much less confusion. I won't have to keep repeating the same thing with ever greater amplification.
NOW ONCE AGAIN
The people that attacked Troy also know as Illium and Wilusa were Greeks. They may not have been called Greeks by everyone or anyone at the time but most of the world calls them Greeks now. As for the later Greeks the Romans called them Acheans long after even you would admit they were Greek. So the word Achean is best used to generate confusion.
I might point out there never was a Trojan war. That is a Roman term. Homer called it the Illiad and the city was Illium. The Hittites called it Wilusa assuming they ever reffered to it at all. There are tablets that were found in the Hittite diplomatic archives that seem to refer to Wilusa in a way that implies it was the same city as Illium.
Names can generate much confusion. Germany is Deutchland and other things depending on who is calling it what. On top of which Deutch sounds like Dutch and English speakers call the Netherlands Holland and the people Dutch.
The Greeks were all over the area. There are different names for them in different places but they were still Greek even when controlled by Persia or mass murdered by Alexander somewhere near Afganistan.
Nevertheless they mostly came from the area that is now known as Greece. They are the source of the Greek language and Greek culture. Most of the others groups you mention also spoke Greek and had the same overall culture.
The Myceneans were Greek. Its a cultural and economic grouping united by a common language, alphabet, locality and time period.
The leader of the attacking alliance of Greeks possibly then called Acheans was Agamemnon. The King of Mycenae. Hence the name for that Agean and Mainland Greek culture is called Mycenaen.
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Bereta_Eder
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and another thing that you did point out and is credible.
Greeks were refered to by a myriad of Greek names by other people. (names of Greek "races")
The Persians called Greeks, Macedonians
The Troyians called Greeks, Achaeans
hell even the Turks now call Greeks, Ionians
So maybe Troyians (which were descentants of Greeks themselves, it was a Greek collony that Greeks wanted back) were refered to Greeks by using the term Achaeans.
But they never, AFAIK, used the term Mycenaeans in any way.
Last edited by Bereta_Eder on 02-04-2002 at 17:37
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Adalbertus
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Cologne, Germany
Feb 2001
time: 06:17
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quote:
The Persians called Greeks, Macedonians
The Troyians called Greeks, Achaeans |
The Greeks called Greeks, Hellenes 
Paiktis, I guess you are no more, perhaps a bit less, a classical Greek as Agamemnon was. A people naturally evolves with the time. AFAIK, there were several waves of similar people who entered Greece until 800 BC, a greater part already had arrived by the time of the Troyan war, some were to arrive, one had already an ancient Greek as language. Today, there is almost certainly some Roman and Turkish blood mixed in the pot, probably others, too. Don't worry about that. I'd call Germans from 500 years ago still Germans. The notion of Germany was formed in the 900's after the separation of the West and East Frankish Empire. And from the participants of the Troyan war I would suggest that this common notion already was formed for the Greeks in 1200BC. Who called themselves Greek as much as Plato did, which is not at all.
Calm down, both of you, it seems to be only about words.
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Ethelred
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quote:
Originally posted by paiktis22
So maybe Troyians (which were descentants of Greeks themselves, it was a Greek collony that Greeks wanted back) were refered to Greeks by using the term Achaeans.
But they never, AFAIK, used the term Mycenaeans in any way. |
While it is possible the the people of Illium were Greek they may have been of some other people. They definitly traded with Greeks. Last I saw the archeology is inconclusive but I haven't seen the latest stuff. Its in German.
Mycenean is a term historians and archeologists use for the Greek culture at that time period. I really doubt that a bunch of rabidly independent city states would accept being called by the name of another city. However they are all dead now and they can't defend themselves from the ravages of modern historians.
Even their graves have been robbed.
If the modern Greeks want to change the names they will have to start doing the archeology themselves. As long as they let the Americans, Brittish, and Germans do all the work they won't have any controll over the terms that are used.
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Again, it depends on your definition of civilization.
The earliest records of a written language date to the Indus River valley around 5000 BC.
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Bereta_Eder
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As I said I will not try to educate you any longer.
But if you want to clear up your confusions and because I really like when people take interests of greek tales long gone I propose you to look at this website.
Battle of Troy: The Battle between Achaeans (Greeks) and Troyians.
Agamemnon and Achileas leaders of The Achaeans and so on.
http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/ACHAEANLEADERS.html
Please read it carefully if very complete.
If you have anythign else to question and do so in a manner that at least I understand I'll be happy to tell you more.
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Ethelred
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quote:
since you deny saying what I quoted you as saying, this really serves no purpose anymore. |
I did no such thing. I denied your versions of what I said. I never denied the actual quotes merely your own misinterpretations of what I said.
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since you deny saying what I quoted you as saying, this really serves no purpose anymore. |
I wasn't trolling. Try a mirror. You are the one that is being obdurate here.
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Mycenaeans have no relation with Achaeans. |
You are mistaken. You clearly did not look at a single link I posted.
You must have also forgoten who Agamemnon was and where he came from.
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They were in completely different time frames and the ancient scriptures talk about Achaeans attacking Troy. |
Its the same time. Historians use the term Mycenean. For the Acheans that attacked Troy AKA Illium.
AKA means Also Known As.
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Agamemnon coming from an ancient Mycanaean city doesn't change that since Mycenaean cities were destroyed and rebuilt by new comer greek races. |
Really? Just who destroyed Athens? Athen was a myceanean city during the mycanean time period that ended after the Trojan War and not before.
Those that were destroyed were destroyed AFTER the Trojan war.
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As I said I will not try to educate you any longer. |
You mean you will stop mistating what I REALLY said? Thank you thank you.
From your link:
quote:
"Mycenae, the leader of the Greeks in the Trojan war, and Nineveh, where was the royal palace of the Assyrians, are utterly ruined and desolate...Of the opulent places in the ancient world, Egyptian Thebes and Minyan Orchomenus are now less prosperous than a private individual of moderate means...Of Babylon that was the greatest city of its time under the sun nothing remains but the wall. The case of Tiryns in the Argolid is the same. These places have been reduced by heaven to nothing." |
Please note the reference to Mycenae as the leader of the GREEKS in the Trojan war. Note that destruction of Mycenae came AFTER the Trojan War.
Now for some history instead of the legend and myth of the Illiad.
From http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/MINOA/MYCENAE.HTM
quote:
The transition between the Middle and Late Helladic periods is indistinguishable, for the Greek settlers had begun building the rudiments of a civilization earlier in the millenium. Around 1600 BC, though, these urban centers began to thrive and the Greek settlers entered their first major period of cultural creativity. Their cities grew larger, their graves more opulent, their art more common, their agriculture more efficient, and the power of these new warlord cities began to be felt around the Aegean. This period of Greek development and prosperity is called the Late Helladic Period or simply the Mycenean period. The Greeks of this age are the Myceneans proper; for four centuries their culture thrived until it crumbled into the emptiness of history.
For almost two thousand years, the Myceneans were lost to history except for their central position in Greek literature and mythology. For the Mycenean age found its voice in the poetry of Homer in a single defining event: the Mycenean war against Troy, a city in Asia Minor. But this poetry was regarded as fiction only until an amateur archaeologist named Heinrich Schliemann dug up the city of Troy in Turkey and later dug up the Mycenean cities of Mycenae (which gives the age its name) and Tiryns.
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Here is another
http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/homer/
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The Illiad is based on events which probably occurred around 1000 B.C.E. The Mycenean Greeks of this era were contemporaries with a Bronze age city in Asia Minor on the Aegean coast of what today is Turkey. Both these cultures employed megalithic architecture. Heinrich Schliemann, a German archeologist in the early 20th Century, excavated both Mycenae in the Peloponessus region of Greece, and another site in western Turkey which he identified as the actual city of Troy. 'Troy' was destroyed (sometimes by fire) and rebuilt--not once, but multiple times--and resembles closely the description of Troy in the Iliad. Whether the events in the Iliad are literally true in some sense is still unknown. The Odyssey, on the other hand, is pure fiction, and one must strain to correlate its plot with any actual geography or history; it has been called the first science fiction novel. |
Gee I am such a troll I back up what I say with facts. The facts must be causing the trollish skin condtion.
I stand on what I said previously. Those do a nice job of backing it up. So did my previous links.
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Bereta_Eder
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BTW forgiveme for not correcting spelling mistakes but for some reason the connection to the Internet has grinded to a halt this past 20 minutes or so.
"Let me dispell some rumours so they don't fester into facts"
Kittin, Dead Poets Society.
Frenchie, Greeks always called themselves Hellenes. They still do know.
Greeks was a term given by the latins (those silly barbarians )
According to myth the first Greek was Hellenos (hence Hellene) and his brother was Greckos (hence the Greek).
That's about that.
Another thing. Greeks called themselves Greeks (Hellenes) from the ancient times. It was a common identity that united many. From the Spartans and the Athenians to the Macedonians the Thebans, the Argolites etc etc etc
Alexander the Great during the opening ceremony of the Olympics called upon Hellas, his country as he called it, to defend itself against the Barbarians.
The word Hellene appears many many times in inumeramble ancient scriptures.
If my internet connection was workinglike it always did I'd dig up all the quotes from the ancient works, believe you me and I will do so in the future.
for the time being content yourself with this:
"Men of Athens... Had I not greatly at heart the common welfare of Hellas I should not have come to tell you; but I am myself Hellene by descent, and I would not willingly see Hellas exchange freedom for slavery.... If you prosper in this war, forget not to do something for my freedom; consider the risk I have run, out of zeal for the Hellenic cause, to acquaint you with what Mardonius intends, and to save you from being surprised by the barbarians. I am Alexander of Macedon."
(Herodotus, The Histories, 9.45)
About Germans. How can we not be grateful to the Germans and other Philellines that assisted us on retrieving ancient artifacts.
Primeraly it was Germans.
They do not define names and places. The ancient scriptures do that and of course we are in a better position to establish phrases and names than any other.
Unfortunately some of the helpers (I'll say no names - ELGIN) did "help" too.
Their help was to steal everything that was not attached and even some that were
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Ethelred
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Hell is a nice little town in Norway. Or the Norse Underworld.
The Norse word was borrowed to translate the Bible into English. Lots of different Greek and Hebrew words were all translated as Hell. Often the word that gets translated as Hell was Gehenna.
Gehenna was a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem.
A nasty place to be sure.
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Bereta_Eder
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Ethelred,
Mycanaeans are NOT perceived as Greeks. Greece by itself didn't even exist back then. Either you are using another name for them or you have a very bad source.
In Greek it's Μυκήνες.
Since noone can be so wrong about a name I presume you are using bad sources.
Mykines, Mycenaeans were a different civilization than what Greece (ancient Greece) has come to mean.
It's as simple as that. Please check your sources because it seems to me you are quoting a theory that strives (for whatever reason) to portray Greece as continuity from times it didn't even exist as a whole.
From Trojan women
While to Achaean ships great store of gold and Phrygian spoils are being conveyed, and they who came against this town, those sons Of Hellas, only wait a favouring breeze to follow in their wake, that after ten long years they may with joy behold their wives and children
Poseidon
Ay surely; but I would fain learn thy wishes, whether thou art come to help Achaens or Phrygians
ATHENA
I wish to give my former foes, the Trojans, joy, and on the Achaean host impose a return that they will rue.
ATHENA
When they have set sail from Ilium for their homes. On them will Zeus also send his rain and fearful hail, and inky tempests from the sky; yea, and he promises to grant me his levin-bolts to hurl on the Achaeans and fire their ships. And do thou, for thy part, make the Aegean strait to roar with mighty billows and whirlpools, and fill Euboea's hollow bay with corpses, that Achaeans may learn henceforth to reverence my temples and regard all other deities.
I can go on and I will with plenty more quotes from ancient scriptures when I have the time.
Produce the same from ancient source please.
Dinodo In Greek : Ελληνες Ellines.
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Bereta_Eder
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Frenchie (sorry keep forgetting your name).
About mixing of blood. This is a very dangerous subject and one which I do not feel comfortable talking about.
It leads to questions of race and I am not in favor of racial disctinctions.
However I have to say that Greeks and Romans did indeed mix.
Yet Christians Greeks and Ottoman Muslims did not. It was considered a mortal sin to marry a muslim.
Turks did however snatch little boys from the embrace of their mothers and raised them as turksish warriors. Many of them are now Turks of Asia Minor that indeed have some Greek blood in them.
This is also the case for the Region of Pontos. (NE Turkey - former conquests of Alexander the Great and the Eastern Roman Empire)
During Byzantium different ethnic groups remained painstackingly separated. That is why we still have a Vlahoi (a very funny minority indeed) as well as the Arvanites who do speak Greek and are Greek in every way.
I do not like separations based on race though.
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Bereta_Eder
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I did not call you mississippppian.
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Ethelred
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
Hel is the Norse Underworld. Hell is another place alltogether. |
Its the same place from what I can tell. The word was adapted for the Bible. Really. Spelling changes over time. Especially with English. Maybe it was chosen because it a sounds a bit like Sheol. It may have come from a slightly different word but the root would have been the Norse underworld. A very different place from the moder christian hell.
The dictionary I just looked in mentioned helan a old English word for conceal. Old English had a lot of norse in it and anything in hel was certainly concealed.
And there is no such word as Hell in the Bible in the original languages. It really is often Gehenna in the New Testatment. A garbage dump. A really nasty hot miserable awful foul putrid garbage dump. But still a garbage dump no matter how awful it was.
Its often a replacement for other words, Sheol for instance is the abode of the dead. Sometimes its Hades. But sometimes its Gehenna.
Maybe the Jews dumped unpleasant people in the garbage instead of burying them on occasion.
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Ethelred
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quote:
Originally posted by paiktis22
Ethelred,
Mycanaeans are NOT perceived as Greeks. Greece by itself didn't even exist back then. Either you are using another name for them or you have a very bad source. |
I could swear you said the Achean were greek. That is back then.
quote:
In Greek it's Μυκήνες.
Since noone can be so wrong about a name I presume you are using bad sources. |
I am not wrong. I am using good sources. I even used YOUR source to make a point. You didn't look at those links did you?
quote:
Mykines, Mycenaeans were a different civilization than what Greece (ancient Greece) has come to mean.
It's as simple as that. Please check your sources because it seems to me you are quoting a theory that strives (for whatever reason) to portray Greece as continuity from times it didn't even exist as a whole. |
I posted two nice links. How about YOU look at them. I did point out that I use English didn't I?
I just tried Mykines on Google. Guess what came up?
Mycanea. On a Greek site. It calls it Greek.
http://www.gogreece.com/travel/select.html?CityID=361
I really don't care what Trojan Women says. It isn't reality and it isn't modern historical nomenclature which is what I am using.
You do know that Athena and Poideiden didn't really exist don't you? So then you should also know a play using them is not the same thing as using standard historical and archeological terminology.
quote:
I can go on and I will with plenty more quotes from ancient scriptures when I have the time. |
I am sure you can. Its an utter waste time. Not because I won't listen but because YOU aren't listening.
Mycanean IS A MODERN term. Please understand this time. Its not and never was a term used by ancient greeks. It is the STANDARD word for greek culture of the time of the Trojan War.
For example, I guarantee you the Clasical Mayans never ever called themselves Clasical at any time ever. Not even translated into Mayan. Hower it is still standard terminology for the Mayan culture of a specific time period. I forget the time something like 600-800 AD is what is in my mind.
Do try actually looking at the link I posted instead of ignoring them. I looked at yours. I didn't see one thing there that gave me any reason to abandon modern historical terms for the Mycanean culture.
Since you have consistantly said the Acheans were greeks or then the Mycaneans were Greek. Since the Acheans at Troy were the exact same people that historians call Mycenaean Greeks.
You can either say the Acheans weren't greek or you can say they were. Either way historians and archeologists call them Myceneans Greeks.
I have been seeing that term consistently for twenty years. Not just one source, every one of them in the English language.
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Bereta_Eder
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you don't care what the Trojan Women of Euripides say...
Very well.
do you care what ANY of the ancient scriptures say?
Where do you think we get all this info about ancient Greece?
Look, this has got beyond ridiculous.
Let us sum up:
You accept that accrding to ancient texts, the ONLY source we have and where EVERYTHING is based save archeological artifacts, it was the Achaeans who ravaged Troy.
This is a start.
Where we do continue to differ is in your misinformed opinion about Mycenaeans.
Come to Greece and visit the national achaeological museum of Athens. See for yourself the finds and the texts.
Mycaneans were not Greek in the way that Greece is thought of.
In ancient scriptures achaeans were Greeks and it was them who attacked Troy.
Now wether Mycaneans were the Achaeans, it is the first time I hear of this. If this stands then wer are both correct.
But you have to give me hard evidence for that.
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02-04-2002 15:53
I know what to do. As an American and therefor a member of English cilization there is always one good answer for messes.
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