30-03-2002 04:16									#1
	Where did the world's first civilization appear? Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

There are various theories about where the first "civilized" culture appeared in the world.

There are lots of theories on it. The two most popular are that the first "civilizations" appeared in the Middle East or India. Some more recent theories suggest the first "civilization" might have been located in south or meso america.

	30-03-2002 04:19									#2
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Hey, wheres the Atlantis option?

	30-03-2002 04:20									#3
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quote: Some more recent theories suggest the first "civilization" might have been located in south or meso america

a) Which theories would those be?

b) The first civilisation is usually ascribed to the eastern Mediterranean region, but not to the Middle East.

	30-03-2002 04:26									#4
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There's currently a lot of speculation about some enigmatic structures at the bottom of the Indian Ocean, around 50 miles off the coast of India, about 50 feet down. Whatever is there (if anything), it appears to date from at least 7000 BC.

And then, there are the theories that the Sphinx is much, much older than the rest of the Giza momuments--it's erosion pattern suggests water erosion, meaning rainfall. To get enough rainfall to produce that much erosion, it would have to date to 7500 BC at the very earliest, and most likely to around 10,000 BC.

So, long story short, we have no idea, and probably won't for a while.

	30-03-2002 04:28									#5
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quote: Which theories would those be?

The Tiahuanaco theory, for one.

quote: The first civilisation is usually ascribed to the eastern Mediterranean region, but not to the Middle East.

Eastern Mediterranean is part of the middle east. Plus, many textbooks refer to sumeria as the world's first civilization, which certainly was located in the middle east.

	30-03-2002 04:29									#6
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Greece &co. will be glad to hear that they're part of the ME.

	30-03-2002 04:33									#7
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quote: Greece &co. will be glad to hear that they're part of the ME.

east med means israel and neighbours. and cyprus is considered to be part of asia, and not europe.

anyway, I don't think you could possible claim greece (incl. crete) to be the first civilization on earth.

	30-03-2002 04:34									#8
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Crete is among the first 3, at least.

	30-03-2002 04:36									#9
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Middle East, of course.

Though I find it bizarre that there's a "south america" option but no "east asia" option.

	30-03-2002 04:42									#10
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quote: Crete is among the first 3, at least.

true enough, but this thread isn't about the first 3.

quote: Though I find it bizarre that there's a "south america" option but no "east asia" option.

That's cause I haven't heard of any (semi)valid theories that there are east asian civilizations predating indian or middle eastern civilizations. If you know of any, please post them here.

	30-03-2002 04:48									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus That's cause I haven't heard of any (semi)valid theories that there are east asian civilizations predating indian or middle eastern civilizations. If you know of any, please post them here.

I don't.
But for that matter, I don't know any for New World civilizations either, which is why I found it bizarre that New World civs are a choice and East Asian ones aren't.

	30-03-2002 04:53									#12
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I'm going to stick with Iraq/fertile crescent area right now. Though from what I've been reading in recent years, it seems Egypt and/or Indus Valley may have some plausable claims.

	30-03-2002 04:53									#13
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The Tiahuanaco theory seems to be based around some assumptions about both the intent and precision of the builders of that city. Reasonable archaeologists still date it to the first few centuries AD.

	30-03-2002 06:12									#14
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no southeast asia nor egypt options....

	30-03-2002 06:38									#15
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To quote the title of a book by Samual Noah Kramer, "History Begins At Sumer".

But Turkey (Catal Huyuk) seems to be quite old too...

	30-03-2002 06:51									#16
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Generally by civilization we mean cities, but we might also mean the first group of cities connected politically. The oldest city in the world is (iirc) believed to be Jericho. Maybe it's the oldest continuously inhabitied city. There may have been a few older cities in Anatolia (modern Turkey) but I'm not sure if they've been "certified" yet. In this case, the Middle East would be the oldest civilization.

The oldest group of politically connected cities, as far as we know, are the Sumerian cities, so again, the first civilization started in the Middle East. Too little is know about the Harapan (Indus) cities to make a sreious judgement as to whether they were politically connected or not.

China is the oldest existing civilization, going back almost 4,000 years.

	30-03-2002 06:54									#17
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Generally by civilization we mean cities, but we might also mean the first group of cities connected politically. The oldest city in the world is (iirc) believed to be Jericho. Maybe it's the oldest continuously inhabitied city. There may have been a few older cities in Anatolia (modern Turkey) but I'm not sure if they've been "certified" yet. In this case, the Middle East would be the oldest civilization. The oldest group of politically connected cities, as far as we know, are the Sumerian cities, so again, the first civilization started in the Middle East. Too little is know about the Harapan (Indus) cities to make a sreious judgement as to whether they were politically connected or not. China is the oldest existing civilization, going back almost 4,000 years.

Chegitz spotting! Alert the media!

	30-03-2002 07:09									#18
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I have to go with the trend here and cast my vote for the Fertile Crescent theory. China, though probably the most consistently powerful civilization for the longest period of time, only started circa 3000 BC and the factual evidence to support unification at this early stage is partial.

Mind you, "only" starting circa 3000 BC is still not bad!

IIRC, Jericho was considered to be the oldest walled city, and not the earliest city per se. I thought that accolade goes to the Sumerians.

	30-03-2002 09:30									#19
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I remember reading about peoples getting all around the globe before civilization per-se started.

So it's possible that sin several places civilzation started at similar times.

I think I remember seeing a TV show about quite old asian civilizations.

I woud too think that the first civilization would have to be in the ME.

	30-03-2002 10:42									#20
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Sumer is the oldest, depending on what defines civilization.

Civilization is defined as:

1.An advanced state of intellectual, cultural, and material development in human society, marked by progress in the arts and sciences, the extensive use of record-keeping, including writing, and the appearance of complex political and social institutions.
2.The type of culture and society developed by a particular nation or region or in a particular epoch: Mayan civilization; the civilization of ancient Rome.
3.The act or process of civilizing or reaching a civilized state.
4.Cultural or intellectual refinement; good taste.

Of the ancients, Sumer is the first to fit these parameters.

	30-03-2002 10:58									#21
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IMO, a civilization is a group of people who have domesticated plants or large animals. In that case, the Middle East is probably the site of the first civilization.

	30-03-2002 12:25									#22
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Fertile Crescent

	30-03-2002 13:11									#23
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Fertile Crescent + Egypt. In contact with each other.
An interesting note: Stone circles like Stonehenge (very roughly 7000BC) were all shown to be constructed with the same basic unit of length. It's the same unit of length which later (4000-3000BC) found in mesopotamia in buildings and also rulers. All other units of length other than meter can be related to this unit in a simple way (People found it easier having 28 instead of 30 inch to an ell; or a square of 5 old units edge length has a diagonal of 7 new units - thus giving an elegant way of getting rid of irrational numbers, which were close to devil's work in ancient thinking). Accuracy of tradition: 0.2%. Number of different ells: around 30.
It's very difficult to define what is a civilization. "Mining, irrigation, roads" is certainly the worst , because it came rather late. Historians probably would define it by writing, which reduces the problem to a couple of hundred years. I'd guess sumerologists claim that Sumerans were the first, egyptologists would claim Egypts were the first. The thing is both regions had the same situation (river+growing desert), and had a loose contact and if only by nomads who needed to extend the range of their wandering to feed their animals. They could have reported the "strange behaviour of those strange people who are growing crops instead of having a real herd". The Egyptians/Sumerans people understood more of what the Sumerans/Egyptians have invented.
From there information has spread to India, China, Europe, South/Mesoamerica. And even in the Americas the same units of length were used... Tolerance 0.2%

	30-03-2002 13:30									#24
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Traces of an ur-temple just outside Stonehenge have been dated at 9000BC, indicating that there was some degree of organised religion that built substantial structures. However, as the settlements were built of wood and wattle-and-daub in Britain it's much harder to find remnants of settlements than in areas where bricks or rock were used.

	30-03-2002 13:35									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Adalbertus Fertile Crescent + Egypt. In contact with each other. An interesting note: Stone circles like Stonehenge (very roughly 7000BC) were all shown to be constructed with the same basic unit of length. It's the same unit of length which later (4000-3000BC) found in mesopotamia in buildings and also rulers.

You're over-ageing the stone circles. Stonehenge was constructed over thousands of years, but between 4000BC and 1500BC. The trilithons now seen are only around 3500-4000 years old and are the work of the Beaker people, an entirely different civilisation to the megalithic henge builders. It's a total anomaly.

The oldest megalithic temple (Weyland's Smithy in England and a couple in France) have been dated at 4500- 5000BC. Before that, "woodhenges" were the main remains- huge wooden temples.

	30-03-2002 13:43									#26
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Adalbertus wins the prize for showing the current status of the debate in academic circles. It really comes down to writing, and the oldest writing argument has gone back and forth between Egypt and Sumer for a while now. IIRC the oldest (by carbon dating) writing at this juncture is claimed in Egypt right now, though it is so close in time to writing in Sumer that the debate is still wide open. It seems obvious that these two areas were in contact, the fact that they both acquired the same technologies so close together in time and so far ahead of other areas is very unlikely to be a coincidence.

If you want to change the definition of civilization, then there are other areas which might gain an entry into the competition. As Bugs notes Britain had a very sophisticated neo-lithic civilization, and there were others as well, in Europe and India (as Guynemeyer states).

	30-03-2002 16:06									#27
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Civlilization started simultaneously in 16 areas, scattered around, by the Americans, Indians, French, English, Russians, Chinese, Japanese, Iroquois, Zulus, Aztecs, Babylonians, Persians, Romans, Germans, Egyptians, and the Greeks. Everyone knows this.

Steele

	30-03-2002 18:12									#28
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Houses at the lowest level of Jericho have been dated to 9000 B.C.

As far as writing goes, I thought that tablets found at Ur were the oldest found yet.

	30-03-2002 18:19									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Houses at the lowest level of Jericho have been dated to 9000 B.C. As far as writing goes, I thought that tablets found at Ur were the oldest found yet.

Some symbols carved on stone have been found in Egypt within the last few years which have been deemed to be pictograms and are carbon dated a bit older than the oldest (yet) known Sumerian writing. This has put Egypt back in front for the time being, though IIRC no one can read these yet, and they don't seem to be related to later Egyption writing. They were found kind of far from the upper Nile in the desert. They are still controversial, especially in the Mesopotamian camp.

	30-03-2002 18:39									#30
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Fertile Crescent was where Civilization began. Although the Irish were up to some serious stuff over 5,000 years ago with the construction of Newgrange, whose construction obviously indicated a culture which had a deep understanding of astrology.