01-04-2002 04:22									#1
	Everybody boycott Infrogames Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Infrogames really should pay for putting up all this hype for CivIII and the game is a flop:

1. They didnt iron out all the bugs because they wanted to get the game out by the holiday season

2. The editor is a peice of crap

3. The A.I. is still stupid and CHEATS

4. NO MULTIPLAYER

BOYCOTT INFROGGAMES
Can't wait for CTP3 (Even CTP1 was better).

	01-04-2002 04:40									#2
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I can see this thread getting closed.

	01-04-2002 04:49									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

1. The game is a best seller. I doubt that counts as a flop.

2. Your're right about the rush. Unfortunately schedules matter to some people. No not programmers prolly, but the people who employ the programmers.

3. They are ironing out the bugs.

4. The editor is *the next big item* for a patch, I believe.

5. The AI is the best yet in a civ game. Too bad our computers can't handle HAL yet. However, I think a lot of players don't really want to play an AI that learns like a human AND never makes a miscalculation.

6. No MP. Yeah that blows for some. Patience would be recommended. They might release MP in a patch.

7. Your're gonna be waiting a long time for CTP3. But then again, gods have a while don't they?

	01-04-2002 05:55									#4
	Full PM-box? Change here!

the only companies i MIGHT "boycott" are

1: Blizzard (they make decent games, dont get me wrong, but im not a fan of any of their games, and i feel they should provide coupons for replacement mice for all the clicking Diablo games require)

2: Microprose (actually, i LOVE microprose games... but they always give me an eerie feeling... like something isnt quite right... hrm)

so... put me on the boycott Blizzard train, but as for Infogrames and Firaxis, rock on i say... and i must be right, because 7 people agree with me... atleast on Infogrames.

	01-04-2002 06:00									#5
	Suffering from ads?

I might boycott Seirra/Monolith for their butchering of the AL|EN v. Predator franchise. Rebellion for AvP3!



And while I'm at it, LucasArts for their lack of good PC games since TIE Fighter.

	01-04-2002 06:35									#6
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither 6. No MP. Yeah that blows for some. Patience would be recommended. They might release MP in a patch.

While others could care less. I could never see myself playing MP Civ, it would take to bloody long. And I doubt I'd ever be able to find someone who would sit down for at least a week in order to play a game, which is what I do when I'm having a good one. In fact, I suspect that MP players are a distinct minority with Civ.

	01-04-2002 06:40									#7
	Remove this text

MP'ers are no more a minority than the scenario makers
Both groups are still important.

While you may never want to play a MP game, many of us still would. Until then, we will continue playing Civ II MP.

	01-04-2002 06:41									#8
	Re: Everybody boycott Infrogames Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Odin Infrogames really should pay for putting up all this hype for CivIII and the game is a flop: 1. They didnt iron out all the bugs because they wanted to get the game out by the holiday season 2. The editor is a peice of crap 3. The A.I. is still stupid and CHEATS 4. NO MULTIPLAYER BOYCOTT INFROGGAMES Can't wait for CTP3 (Even CTP1 was better).

You forgot NO SCENARIO BUILDING, as we had in Civ 2.

Tell you this, anyone who buys another Civ III disk from Firaxis is a fool and a sucker. No doubt their little brains are planning to sell us some lame-ass Scenario Disk, and Expansion Disk, a Gold version, and an updated Strategy Guide. No sale, guys.

I expect to get all these things FREE since the disk they originally stuck me with was severely flawed.

As for the game being "a best seller", well, IT STILL SUCKS. Just because Firaxis exploits the "Civiliaztion" franchise; pays Sid for use of his name; gets its shills in the Computer Gaming World to tell us how "wonderful" Civ III is; and hence gets us suckers to buy it does not mean it is a good game.

I for one will NEVER buy anoher Firaxis product until I have spent a few months reading the online forums.

	01-04-2002 06:45									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Folks, if you had been paying attention Firaxis has been hiring some heavy hitters. It looks more and more likely that they are going to make the move to self publish.

jt

	01-04-2002 06:58									#10
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Ming MP'ers are no more a minority than the scenario makers Both groups are still important. While you may never want to play a MP game, many of us still would. Until then, we will continue playing Civ II MP.

Which, if I recall correctly, didn't have MP when it first came out either. I think it's more important getting the bugs out of SP first before they try and tackle MP. There's still a lot of disagreement over some of the unit stats etc., so they're going to have to hammer those out first, as well as some of the bugs that still exist. Otherwise MP is just going to be chaos, with no one being happy about it.

	01-04-2002 07:35									#11
	Lovely idea, but... Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

...but there's NFW I'm gonna boycott Infogrames over Civ 3. Why? Two words:

Neverwinter Nights

Maybe after June 25th.

	01-04-2002 07:46									#12
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Willem Which, if I recall correctly, didn't have MP when it first came out either. I think it's more important getting the bugs out of SP first before they try and tackle MP. There's still a lot of disagreement over some of the unit stats etc., so they're going to have to hammer those out first, as well as some of the bugs that still exist. Otherwise MP is just going to be chaos, with no one being happy about it.

I agree. MP is a big deal, considering you are not dealing with AI in that arena. You'd want to make a totaly even playing field were no one can be exploited due to some glitch in the code.

Of course I don't think I'll be able to MP, since my 19k connection on my 56k modem bites.

	01-04-2002 08:00									#13
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Willem Which, if I recall correctly, didn't have MP when it first came out either.

Civ2 came out about 6 years ago, MP was not a big deal back then. It certainly is now, because so many other games have MP. However i am willing to wait, provided its a patch and not a $50 mp expansion and then a $50 Decent Editor Gold Edition with scenarios.

	01-04-2002 08:06									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by simwiz2 Civ2 came out about 6 years ago, MP was not a big deal back then. It certainly is now, because so many other games have MP. However i am willing to wait, provided its a patch and not a $50 mp expansion and then a $50 Decent Editor Gold Edition with scenarios.

But most games today that have MP, are usualy sloppy in the SP aspect in the game. The thinking goes that it's easier to add MP and consider that replay value then having to spend some extra time making a good SP. And usally in the end, require one or two patches to fix up the sloppy coding for MP.

This is a big fault in many PC games today IMHO. The increase use of scripted AI in SP is what makes me more picky about which games I buy.

	01-04-2002 09:48									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Well you did manage to sum up my main problems with the game, almost in order. I have no plans to boycott anyone.

These are all problems I had with Black and White, and I purchased B&W : Creature Island in the hopes that it would address these issues and it did not, and I have no plans to finish creature Isle after getting stuck........

And I would buy B & W 2, if it looked good.

CIV 2 is one of my favorite games of all times, and the only one on my top ten list that doesn't have "good characters" and "good plot". I am at times disappointed with Civ3, and if they put out an XP for it I will read the box before rushing to the ATM for cash, but I'd probably get it.

Look at it another way: A boycott should have a goal. You should be trying to get the big company to do something your way, and if they do they you go back to being a good customer. What are the goals? What are the dead lines? How will you know if they have been met?

Rik

	01-04-2002 13:42									#16
	Increase Your PM Length

I already boycott Infogrames since November, although not for the reasons you have listed. Civ2 was also a buggy game w/o MP when it came out and it went well after fixes and the MGE. Even though it still has flaws. I have no reason to believe that it will be different with Civ3. And as to the AI... well yea, it's still dumb, but compared with the AS (Artifical Stupidity) of Civ2 it's like Einstein. By the way, you seem to be much of a MP fan, so why the heck are you caring so much about the AI?

I'm boycotting Infogreed for the cease and desist order to the German fan translation project last year. Not for the order itself, but for the way it was done. They were told by the fans that the project had started and didn't respond. They ignored the project full four weeks and instead of asking to cease in a friendly way, they sent a lawyer. Infogrames

	01-04-2002 14:07									#17
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by The Thinker Well you did manage to sum up my main problems with the game, almost in order. I have no plans to boycott anyone. These are all problems I had with Black and White, and I purchased B&W : Creature Island in the hopes that it would address these issues and it did not, and I have no plans to finish creature Isle after getting stuck........ Rik

It's interesting that you mention Black & White. Black & White and Civ III were both highly rated games (>90%) in PCGamer. I am starting to wonder about that magazine. Do they even play test these games before they review them? I think Civ III is a good game, but not Excellent which is how they rated it. I have learned my lesson, don't buy the game until it's in the bargain bin. After a year or so all of the problems should be ironed out and it will only cost $10. If you don't like the game at least you don't feel like you spent a lot of money. Another good aspect of waiting to buy PC games is that your hardware will be more than adequate (I know I have to upgrade every 3 years to keep up). You just have to be patient with PC games apparently.

	01-04-2002 15:38									#18
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by simwiz2 so many other games have MP. However i am willing to wait, provided its a patch and not a $50 mp expansion and then a $50 Decent Editor Gold Edition with scenarios.

I have a feeling it will be in a $50 MP & Full Editor Gold Edition, but then we will notice something... and Firaxis will say, "Yes, you still cannot place the starting positions of the Civs. Muhahahaha!"

	01-04-2002 18:03									#19
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

The only people I'd want to boycott are Electronic Arts.


Dammit they have ruined so many potentially good games.

The Ultima series after VII were ruined by the EA bigwigs. How could Origin have made their masterpieces with the immeasurably ridiculous time-constraints? Especially with Ultima Ascension. Damn, that is the worst case of rushed development in history. Everything from the plot to the gameplay didn't fit in with the first eight games. With the 30-odd years of history to do with the Ultima Series. Everything from Akalabeth (don't laugh. This one was the grandmother of the role-playing genre as we know it) to Ultima VII was great. Why oh why couldn't EA let VIII and IX be great too?

Command & Conquer: Tiberian Sun promised to be a HUGE thing. But since Westwood were bought into EA, it was utterly ruined. And then they have the audacity to release Red Alert II using the Tiberian Sun engine as it should've been, and then charge full price.


What I am trying to say here is that the problems that Infogrames let into the box with the game are so, so minor compared to some of the crocks that EA rushed out for Christmas.

	01-04-2002 18:15									#20
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by LordAzreal The only people I'd want to boycott are Electronic Arts. Dammit they have ruined so many potentially good games. The Ultima series after VII were ruined by the EA bigwigs. How could Origin have made their masterpieces with the immeasurably ridiculous time-constraints? Especially with Ultima Ascension. Damn, that is the worst case of rushed development in history. Everything from the plot to the gameplay didn't fit in with the first eight games. With the 30-odd years of history to do with the Ultima Series. Everything from Akalabeth (don't laugh. This one was the grandmother of the role-playing genre as we know it) to Ultima VII was great. Why oh why couldn't EA let VIII and IX be great too? Command & Conquer: Tiberian Sun promised to be a HUGE thing. But since Westwood were bought into EA, it was utterly ruined. And then they have the audacity to release Red Alert II using the Tiberian Sun engine as it should've been, and then charge full price. What I am trying to say here is that the problems that Infogrames let into the box with the game are so, so minor compared to some of the crocks that EA rushed out for Christmas.

Didn't EA make American McGee's Alice? That game was pretty good (I don't care for 3rd person games, but it was better then most).

	01-04-2002 18:47									#21
	Remove this text

I haven't logged on in a few months and I see that nothing has changed-- first topic I see is just as angry and bitter as ever. Lol!

Anyhow, I don't know if I'd boycott Infogrames, but I know I dumped their stock a couple of months ago after it pretty much went nowhere for an entire year. I still made 25%, but I was expecting more. As for Neverwinter Nights, I'm looking forward to playing it. But as a previous poster said, it's probably advisable to look at the discussion forums before buying. I imagine it will have plenty of bugs at release, so I don't think I'll buy it until it is sufficiently patched.

By the way, I have not downloaded v1.17f yet because I heard there were some bugs and it changes things that I read were good for some aspects of gameplay. What's the verdict on this patch? Should I download or not? I haven't played the game in a few months, but it seems v1.16f made the game playable even though I still don't see any decent bombardment, stackable movement, and of course, my favorite, SPECIFY PLAYER STARTING LOCATION. Also, does v1.17f "fix" nuclear warfare? I mean why can I target an ICBM anywhere on the globe, but not a tactical nuke? That doesn't make any sense.

	01-04-2002 19:00									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by siredgar By the way, I have not downloaded v1.17f yet because I heard there were some bugs and it changes things that I read were good for some aspects of gameplay. What's the verdict on this patch? Should I download or not? I haven't played the game in a few months, but it seems v1.16f made the game playable even though I still don't see any decent bombardment, stackable movement, and of course, my favorite, SPECIFY PLAYER STARTING LOCATION. Also, does v1.17f "fix" nuclear warfare? I mean why can I target an ICBM anywhere on the globe, but not a tactical nuke? That doesn't make any sense.

I don't know about changing any problems with ICBMs (that's a new one on me). But 1.17f did add stack movement to game, and a more evil AI tech tradeing. It also made it more possible to prevent culture flipping with enough troops.

I say download it and see if it floats your boat.

	01-04-2002 19:13									#23
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

If I was to boycott Infogrames, it would be for the same reason as Sir Ralph. I don't boycott a company for the lameness of its products (I don't buy a bad product) but for its behaviour : for example : although Nike sells good shoes, I don't buy any because of their slavery in SE Asia. Although I quite like the taste of McDonalds, I boycott it sincec it represents cultural imperialism.
I'll "boycott" Infogrames spontaneously if they don't sell any satisfying product, simply because I don't like to waste my money for something I dislike. If they release a good game, I'll buy it.

	01-04-2002 19:19									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor If I was to boycott Infogrames, it would be for the same reason as Sir Ralph. I don't boycott a company for the lameness of its products (I don't buy a bad product) but for its behaviour : for example : although Nike sells good shoes, I don't buy any because of their slavery in SE Asia. Although I quite like the taste of McDonalds, I boycott it sincec it represents cultural imperialism. I'll "boycott" Infogrames spontaneously if they don't sell any satisfying product, simply because I don't like to waste my money for something I dislike. If they release a good game, I'll buy it.

Yeah right

	01-04-2002 22:05									#25
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by siredgar Anyhow, I don't know if I'd boycott Infogrames, but I know I dumped their stock a couple of months ago after it pretty much went nowhere for an entire year. I still made 25%, but I was expecting more. ...

Maybe you've sold too early?

There still may be some upward potential, especially in anticipation of MOO3 (third quarter 2002)?!

Haven't checked on the company/earnings/figures ... though ...


AJ

	01-04-2002 22:07									#26
	Remove this text

Yeah! Boicot Boicot Boicot Boicot Boicot Boicot Boicot Boicot Boicot!

	01-04-2002 22:26									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by siredgar Anyhow, I don't know if I'd boycott Infogrames, but I know I dumped their stock a couple of months ago after it pretty much went nowhere for an entire year. I still made 25%, but I was expecting more.

Outside the irrational exuberance of the Internet "bubble", 25% in a year is considered an excellent return on an investment.

	01-04-2002 22:29									#28
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

my body invoulntarilty slaps itself when i think of boycotting infogrames not infrogames, because i'm just THAT addicted to the civ franchise. yes sid, these rants are all about love.

	02-04-2002 01:29									#29
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Hey uncle Odin

	02-04-2002 04:39									#30
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Thrawn05 Didn't EA make American McGee's Alice? That game was pretty good (I don't care for 3rd person games, but it was better then most).

True, I guess.

I am a diehard Ultima fan anyway. I've been following the series since VII, got the Ultima Collection and I'm now into the rest of this great series. I guess their behaviour towards Ultima Ascension really shook my faith in them, as I was expecting more out of it. And with Richard "Lord British" Garriott walking out on them afterwards further shook my faith.

I do know of some good games they release. Who could forget The Sims? System Shock II, Shogun, Total War, and as you said: American McGee's Alice.

EA are capable of good games, but even more capable of ruining them.

I hope that EA learned their lesson when they released their second-rate efforts of Ultima Ascension and Tiberian Sun and that we can look forward to some decent games to come from them in the future.