03-04-2002 14:34									#31
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[nerdmode]

quote: The Great Wall is the only individual man-made object discernable from the surface of the moon with the naked eye.

Really? By my calculations, looking at the Great Wall from the moon would be like looking at a piece of string about a centimeter long from meter away. So lengthwise, it seems reasonable, but that piece of string would also be about 0.01 millimeters thick! That doesn't sound very visible to me. Got proof?
[/nerdmode]

Anyway, regardless of petty visibility questions, I think they should have more wonders in general. I would be concerned about the Temple of Artemis and the Statue of Zeus as wonders, not for the reasons already mentioned in this thread, but becuase of this: Their very titles lock you into a specific mythology that is inseperable with Greece. And while Civ games wisely say "The Great Wall in Leipzig" instead of "The Great Wall of China in Leipzig", that doesn't work so well with the above 'wonders'.

Do you want "The Temple of Artemis in Salamanca"? When did the Iroquois worship any specific goddesses, let alone ancient Greek ones? But what else could we do? "The Wonderful Temple in Salamanca"? "The Temple of the Important Local Goddess in Salamanca"? sorry, I just don't see how to take that true historical wonder of the world, and generalize it in such a way that it would be fitting for other civs to build it. Same for Zeus.

	03-04-2002 15:24									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Salvor Also, many man-made objects can be seen from space, especially if you use a spy satellite. The Great Wall is the only individual man-made object discernable from the surface of the moon with the naked eye. Other man-made artifacts, particularly many city lights, are visible from the moon as well, but they are a conglomeration of many objects seen as one.

Myth, you can't see the great wall, let alone much else artificial, from the moon with the naked eye.

sheesh. Read my previous posts and the auxiliary websites.

	03-04-2002 16:29									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Salvor Also, many man-made objects can be seen from space, especially if you use a spy satellite. The Great Wall is the only individual man-made object discernable from the surface of the moon with the naked eye.

I thought it had just been established that you can't see it from the moon.

I've read the posts up till now and read many of the sites. I think this is the picture that emerges:

All you see from the moon with the naked eye is the planet.

If you go down lower, at some point you can make out manmade objects but the wall is tough to see because it is basically camouflaged. Browns and greens surrounded by browns and greens.

If you use radar on the other hand a different picture emerges. But a different picture would also emerge if you used infrared.

Neither of which qualify as 'with the naked eye'.

quote: Other man-made artifacts, particularly many city lights, are visible from the moon as well, but they are a conglomeration of many objects seen as one.

Let's see if this works:
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/im...ts_dmsp_big.jpg

Robert

	03-04-2002 17:27									#34
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Alas, The Great Library and the Great Wall actually ARE the wonders of the world, but they are not included in the "original seven".

Wonders by philosophical definition are great human achievements that are not neccessary for survival by the culture that built them. They are accounted as Luxury and the only real reason (if we cut the cr*p) they existed was "to stand the test of time". So, the Eiffel tower is a Wonder, Shakespeares theatre is not. Apollo program IS a wonder, Hoover Dam is not (god bless american propaganda), computers are not a wonder, but Internet is etc.

As you can perceive yourself, the capitalist world is not very fond of wonders as they cost much and they dont make cash .

The greatest improvement I find in CIV 3 that they made the Heroic Epic wonder. It fits very well into the definition of Wonders.


Sargeant Kirby

	03-04-2002 17:45									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Sargeant_Kirby Wonders by philosophical definition are great human achievements that are not neccessary for survival by the culture that built them.

Really? Is this an accepted definition?
I would have thought a wonder is something that fills people with wonder.
Wonders in Civ3 are manmade (cos you build 'em). Perhaps a new feature for Civ4: natural wonders. Civ's scramble for them like you do resources. Examples could be: the Grand Canyon, Niagara falls, Victoria falls, Uluru (Ayer's Rock) and grand mountains such as the Kilimanjaro.

Robert

	03-04-2002 20:36									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Salvor Of the original seven wonders, six were Greek (or Hellenistic at least): The Oracle at Delphi (in modern day Greece) The Statue of Zeus at Olympus (in modern day Greece) The Temple of Artemis at Ephesus (rebuilt after a fire in the 4th century BC) (in modern day Turkey) The Pharos Lighthouse at Alexandria (in modern day Egypt) The Tomb of Mauselus (I forget exactly where but it's on the Aegean coast of Anatolia not far from Ephesus - in modern day Turkey) The Colossus of Rhodes (in modern day Greece)

This goes to prove my point about Firaxis miseducating people. Here is a person who is obviously highly intelligent and educated who thinks that the Oracle is one of the original seven wonders. The Oracle isn't a Wonder by anyone's definition except Firaxis. The seventh wonder that Salvor missed was the Hanging Gardens of Babylon which were (surprisingly) Babylonian and not Greek... though I think they might have been destroyed by the Greeks. The Hanging Gardens were a wonder because they were several different levels (4-5 I think) of gardens on this structure at a time when the pump had not been invented. There is not even any evidence of the use of the screw pump at that time in Babylon, which means a very large elevated garden was kept green and blooming through sheer manual labor (carrying the water up in buckets every day).


Salvor is right about pretty much everything else though. Five out of the Seven were originally Greek or the result of Greek cultural influence.

	03-04-2002 20:59									#37
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quote: Originally posted by kailhun Wonders in Civ3 are manmade (cos you build 'em). Perhaps a new feature for Civ4: natural wonders. Civ's scramble for them like you do resources. Examples could be: the Grand Canyon, Niagara falls, Victoria falls, Uluru (Ayer's Rock) and grand mountains such as the Kilimanjaro.

I think that's a great idea. They could give you benefits kind of like the Landmarks were in SMAC if they are within your territory. There is a lot of disagreement on what the Natural Wonders are... here's some of the main ones (add more if you can think of any):

Mt. Everest (Nepal) --> Highest Mountain in the World
Mt. Fuji (Japan ) --> Highest Mountain in Japan
Mt. Kilimanjaro (Tanzania) --> Highest Mountain in Africa
Angel Falls (South America) --> Highest Waterfall in the World
Iguassu Falls (South America) --> Longest Waterfall in the World (I think)
Niagara Falls (USA/Canada) --> Big Ass Waterfall
Victoria Falls (Africa) --> Highest Waterfall in Africa (I think)
Krakatoa Island (Indonesia) --> Largest Volcanic Eruptions in Human History (I think)
Paricutin Volcano (Mexico) --> Volcano which erupted from a flat cornfield and grew to 1,100 feet in one year (grew bigger later).
Bay of Fundy (Canada) --> Largest Tidal Range in the World
Natural Harbor of Rio de Janeiro --> Perfect harbor with incredible mountains around it.
Great Barrier Reef (Australia) --> Largest Reef/Largest Structure built built by living organisms in the World
Grand Canyon (USA) --> Largest Canyon in the World
Aurora Borealis --> Cool-ass lights

	04-04-2002 00:06									#38
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Tincow, thanks for clearing up my error. I find it kind of embarrassing because I knew that, it was just late at night and I was too lazy to double-check, so I messed up. Ain't hindsight great?

For all you other folks who know everything about what you can see from space, I suggest you get a life. I can't prove what's visible from the moon or not, and neither can you because none of us have ever been there. I posted what I heard in an interview with Eugene Cernan. I figure he knows more about what you can or can't see from the moon than I do or for that matter more than whatever a bunch of adolescent boys want to argue about on an Internet game forum.

Now I remember why I don't spend much time at Apolyton anymore. It's way too negative and vicious an atmosphere for anything approaching civilized discussion.

	04-04-2002 00:52									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Salvor For all you other folks who know everything about what you can see from space, I suggest you get a life. I can't prove what's visible from the moon or not, and neither can you because none of us have ever been there. I posted what I heard in an interview with Eugene Cernan. I figure he knows more about what you can or can't see from the moon than I do or for that matter more than whatever a bunch of adolescent boys want to argue about on an Internet game forum.

And if my job requires me to know astronomical facts, I should change my career?

	04-04-2002 01:07									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Sargeant_Kirby Wonders by philosophical definition are great human achievements that are not neccessary for survival by the culture that built them. They are accounted as Luxury and the only real reason (if we cut the cr*p) they existed was "to stand the test of time". So, the Eiffel tower is a Wonder, Shakespeares theatre is not. Apollo program IS a wonder, Hoover Dam is not (god bless american propaganda), computers are not a wonder, but Internet is etc. Sargeant Kirby

By that definition the Great Lighthouse of Pharos was not a Wonder because it had practical value.

	04-04-2002 02:59									#41
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Well actually yes and no. The great lighthouse was built because the delta of river Nile is swampy and long so navigating ships through it was a must. Note the word "swampy". The great lighthouse sunk (whoops!).
It was a much more intelligent idea to build a city on the coast, and it was built (Memphis).

Also, you are right about thinking about wonders useful, but take a great example: the pyramids only actual value was to keep the tomb raiders out. That is pretty much the value of all other wonders. Do you really think that the great wall kept the Huns and Mongols out of China? Hmm... I think if that would be the case the chinese history would have much less ruling dynasties

Sargeant Kirby

	04-04-2002 03:30									#42
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Actually the Great Wall served quite an important functional purpose. While the Huns and other invaders found ways around it, it did provide a considerable obstacle for them. But its real value was in controlling trade routes. In several ways it was like the world's first giant toll booth.


Cephyn, I wouldn't pretend to be your career counselor, but from what little you seem to know about things here on earth, a job requiring knowledge of astronomical facts seems pretty suited to you. Just try not to contradict yourself so much.

"actually, you can see LOTS of manmade things from space--...like the great wall, cities, long straight highways, harbors, etc."

"Actually YOURE wrong. sorry. You can't even see the Great Wall from that far up....just stuff like runways and things."

"Myth, you can't see the great wall, let alone much else artificial"

Then again, you seem to know so much about myths, maybe you should try your hand at writing fairy-tales. That way people won't question you when you rely on Encyclopedia Britannica as a credible resource for technical data.

	04-04-2002 05:54									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Salvor Actually the Great Wall served quite an important functional purpose. While the Huns and other invaders found ways around it, it did provide a considerable obstacle for them. But its real value was in controlling trade routes. In several ways it was like the world's first giant toll booth. Cephyn, I wouldn't pretend to be your career counselor, but from what little you seem to know about things here on earth, a job requiring knowledge of astronomical facts seems pretty suited to you. Just try not to contradict yourself so much. "actually, you can see LOTS of manmade things from space--...like the great wall, cities, long straight highways, harbors, etc." "Actually YOURE wrong. sorry. You can't even see the Great Wall from that far up....just stuff like runways and things." "Myth, you can't see the great wall, let alone much else artificial" Then again, you seem to know so much about myths, maybe you should try your hand at writing fairy-tales. That way people won't question you when you rely on Encyclopedia Britannica as a credible resource for technical data.

There's a difference between seeing something from LEO -- Low Earth Orbit, like a satellite or the shuttle, and the MOON. Pay attention. Im sorry if me arguing two different points confuses you. Try and keep up. And if you dont find the discussion civilized and too adolescent, quit adding to the problem.

	04-04-2002 06:52									#44
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quote: The seventh wonder that Salvor missed was the Hanging Gardens of Babylon which were (surprisingly) Babylonian and not Greek... though I think they might have been destroyed by the Greeks.

I don't think it was destroyed by the Greeks, but an interesting fact is that the descriptions we have of the gardens were written by Greeks who had never actually seen them, and we don't know where the Gardens actually were, or if they even really existed.

	04-04-2002 11:50									#45
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D'you know, if I ever have the money I'm going to study these Hanging Gardens and build them (this is the bit that requires the money). Not an entire city, but a buidling or two or three, maybe four. Using modern technology. That would be nice.

Robert

	04-04-2002 12:44									#46
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quote: Originally posted by spicytimothy wow... ppl around here are kinda negative since I last posted... let me try to crack this... ok, first, that website that cephyn gave me do not convince me. It just doesn't look convincing. There's a lot of things on the internet, "(just look it up on the internet)"?? u know there's many crazy things online... n e one can put up a website that claims n e thing... About whether Great Wall is one of the 7 wonders or not: I admit, I don't have factual backings for this one. I'm just speaking from my education of 18 years from Hong Kong, Thailand, and the United States. Bleyn: I'm not sure if there's "4" Greek wonders... that's why I typed: "like... 4 wonders?"I was like... thinking roughly Back to the visibility thingy: what is the definition of space to u guys?? to me is when u zoom into the Earth from outer space, the first manmade structure u can c is the Great Wall. If you are talking about somewhere like... right above the atmosphere or... in between the moon and the earth, yeah u might be able to c something else... a airport runway?? u hv n e idea how small that is?? it fits in a city! and the most outrageous thing: TinCow, the website that u gave us proved itself to be wrong: "the Great Wall seems to be made largely of materials that have the same color as the surrounding soil." The Great Wall is surrounded by deep forest, except certain important gates and the extension that is in the desert nowadays. Here i have some links that I believe to have more credentials: NASA of US Gov't: http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/radar/sircxsar/gwall.html Discovery Channel Online http://www.discovery.com/stories/hi...l/satphoto.html ok that is all. Bye bye!

I hate you. Mainly because ur using aol spk omgwtfdood but also because those links you posted CONTAIN ONLY RADAR IMAGES. AND SNOPES SAID THAT THE GREAT WALL IS VISIBLE ONLY USING RADAR IMAGERY. SO YOU DIDN'T READ THE SNOPES ARTICLE AND YET COMMENTED ON THE CREDIBILITY AND YOU DIDN'T EVEN READ THE DAMN ARTICLE. AND, FOR SOME REASON YOU DON'T THINK OF SNOPES AS CREDIBLE WHEN IT'S THE #1 NUMERO UNO (READ: BEST) SKEPTICS SIGHT ON THE NET. AND YOU'VE NEVER HEARD OF IT. AND I'M TYPING IN ALL CAPS. AND I HATE YOU.

	04-04-2002 13:12									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Salvor The Great Wall is the only individual man-made object discernable from the surface of the moon with the naked eye.

I hate you too. The rest of your post was alright but then you said this and ruined the whole thing. You CANNOT discern an object 10 meters wide from a distance of 400,000 kilometers. Ten meters subtends an angle of around 0.000000716 degrees (yes I just did the calcs, I suggest you do them too) from that distance. This is equivelent to looking at a human hair from a distance of 2 kilometers - regardless of "length" btw (yes I did these calcs too).

So to sum up for those who still missed it, IF YOU CAN SEE THE GREAT WALL FROM THE MOON, THEN YOU CAN SEE THE HAIR IN SOMEONE'S SOUP OVER A MILE AWAY. As far as low earth orbit is concerned troll all you want, snopes has it dead on just like everything else.

Seriously, what is wrong with you people? Please think JUST A LITTLE BIT, JUST A TAD before you post. It's like I've discovered a forum populated completely by Mensa trolls, only no one would ever qualify for Mensa.

Christ.