01-04-2002 05:08									#1
	Missing Wonders of the World Support Apolyton

Why is it that in all of the Civ games, they chose to include the 'Wonders of the World' as central buildings and objectives in the game, yet they only put 4 of the actualy 7 wonders in the game. I demand the Statue of Zeus, the Temple of Artemis, and the Mausoleum of Halicarnassus! I mean really... the Temple could easily be substituted for the Oracle, and I'm sure they could find some way to fit the other two in as well.

Firaxis, do you have any idea how many kids are going to be running around thinking that the Great Library and the Great Wall were real wonders of the world???

	01-04-2002 05:10									#2
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I would think a wall that can been seen from space a wonder.

	01-04-2002 07:57									#3
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Seriously.. there are two "sets" of wonders of the world... the ancient ones (mostly greek) and the modern ones (more diverse)...
so we gonna have 14 wonders of the world.. (wait, do some repeat, like the Pyramids? im unsure...)

but wait... there are 9 modern wonders of the world... well... there are if you count Andre the Giant and Chyna of WWF...

build them as wonders, and both will increase, um... uhh... happy faces? in exchange for a reduction in inteligence (science)

	01-04-2002 08:01									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Ninot build them as wonders, and both will increase, um... uhh... happy faces? in exchange for a reduction in inteligence (science)

I did somthing like that to my courthouses. I made them make 1 happy and 1 unhappy person in that city in which it's built. The idea is that in civil court, you have a winner and loser.

	01-04-2002 09:47									#5
	Re: Missing Wonders of the World Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by TinCow Firaxis, do you have any idea how many kids are going to be running around thinking that the Great Library and the Great Wall were real wonders of the world???

Are those same kids that believe the Americans & English were around since 4000 BC and now are sending spaceships filled with people to Alpha Centuri? Wait a second... has anyone warned these kids about the Mind Worms?!!!

	01-04-2002 12:09									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Thrawn05 I would think a wall that can been seen from space a wonder.

MYTH ALERT

actually, you can see LOTS of manmade things from space--anything that disrupts the 'natural' vista of the land...like the great wall, cities, long straight highways, harbors, etc.

	01-04-2002 12:34									#7
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quote: actually, you can see LOTS of manmade things from space--anything that disrupts the 'natural' vista of the land...like the great wall, cities, long straight highways, harbors, etc.

That is not true. The Great Wall is the ONLY man-made structure that can be seem from space. The things that you mentioned can only be seen as lights at night... cities are structures! they're cluster of structures and you can't make them out from space. Long straight highways?? What like route 66?? you can c that 2 lane dirt road from space? and habor?? pls......

as for TinCow: Great Wall is one of the 7 wonders of the world. I think there're enough Greek wonders in the game and if you add n e more it'll be like saying Greek is the only civilized being of that time... They already got like... 4 wonders featured...

spicytimothy

	01-04-2002 14:02									#8
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quote: Originally posted by spicytimothy That is not true. The Great Wall is the ONLY man-made structure that can be seem from space. The things that you mentioned can only be seen as lights at night... cities are structures! they're cluster of structures and you can't make them out from space. Long straight highways?? What like route 66?? you can c that 2 lane dirt road from space? and habor?? pls...... as for TinCow: Great Wall is one of the 7 wonders of the world. I think there're enough Greek wonders in the game and if you add n e more it'll be like saying Greek is the only civilized being of that time... They already got like... 4 wonders featured... spicytimothy

Actually YOURE wrong. sorry. You can't even see the Great Wall from that far up....just stuff like runways and things. Check it out.

http://www.snopes2.com/science/greatwal.htm

	01-04-2002 14:08									#9
	Re: what?? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by spicytimothy as for TinCow: Great Wall is one of the 7 wonders of the world. I think there're enough Greek wonders in the game and if you add n e more it'll be like saying Greek is the only civilized being of that time... They already got like... 4 wonders featured... spicytimothy

Actually, the Great Wall is not one of the classical 7 wonders of the world. I happened to watch a show on this subject on the History Channel tonight. And the Great Wall was and is not one of "The 7 Wonders".

What you have to keep in mind is that the 7 Wonders were defined sometime around 100-200 B.C. and were considered the 7 places that any traveller in the Mediteranian and Asia Minor absolutely had to go see if they got the chance during their travels. The ultimate tourist attractions of their day if you will.

And while there was communication with the Orient at that time, and portions of the Great Wall were in existence, it was nowhere near the monumental structure that it is now. In fact, IIRC, the Great Wall was built piecemeal over a period of at least 1000-1500 years. So it would have been hard for the ancient Greeks and Romans philosophers who really made up the list to pick the Great Wall as one of the Big 7.

The big 7 were the three Tincow mentioned plus the Great Pyramid, the Colossus of Rhodes, the Hanging Gardens, and the Pharos Lighthouse.

Edit: BTW, Where do you get 4 Greek Wonders from anyway? The only one I count is The Oracle of Delphi. Maybe The Colossus if you count Rhodes as Greek, which I don't beleive it was at that time. If anything the Egyptians are the heavies on the Ancient list with The Pyramids, Great Library and The Lighthouse.


As for kids getting distorted ideas of history from the game, I suspect that if anything 1). their idea of history will be no more or less distorted than they will get in school and 2). playing Civ might actually help inspire an interest in real history that will cause them to seek out the real information.

	01-04-2002 17:55									#10
	Re: Re: what?? Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Bleyn Edit: BTW, Where do you get 4 Greek Wonders from anyway? The only one I count is The Oracle of Delphi. Maybe The Colossus if you count Rhodes as Greek, which I don't beleive it was at that time. If anything the Egyptians are the heavies on the Ancient list with The Pyramids, Great Library and The Lighthouse. As for kids getting distorted ideas of history from the game, I suspect that if anything 1). their idea of history will be no more or less distorted than they will get in school and 2). playing Civ might actually help inspire an interest in real history that will cause them to seek out the real information.

You mean that the Pyramids were not built on Seattle?
And the Great Lubrary was not in Berlin?
I always thought the Lighthouse was built in Rome?


Damn, I better start hitting the books.

	01-04-2002 18:33									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Thrawn05 You mean that the Pyramids were not built on Seattle? And the Great Lubrary was not in Berlin? I always thought the Lighthouse was built in Rome?

Where was the Great Wall of China again?

	01-04-2002 19:40									#12
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quote: Originally posted by cephyn MYTH ALERT actually, you can see LOTS of manmade things from space--anything that disrupts the 'natural' vista of the land...like the great wall, cities, long straight highways, harbors, etc.

You just proven me right. I didn't say that it was the only thing that can be view from space now did I?

	01-04-2002 20:14									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Bleyn Edit: BTW, Where do you get 4 Greek Wonders from anyway? The only one I count is The Oracle of Delphi. Maybe The Colossus if you count Rhodes as Greek, which I don't beleive it was at that time. If anything the Egyptians are the heavies on the Ancient list with The Pyramids, Great Library and The Lighthouse.

Rhodes was Greek. So were a lot of other places outside of Greece. Like Alexandria. Which is why the Great Library and the Lighthouse at Pharos are Greek.

Cleopatra was Greek too.

The Greeks were all over the Eastern Mediteranean even before Alexander spread them around even farther. The Greeks had a serious case of ICS even before Sid created Civilization.

	01-04-2002 21:17									#14
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I´m with the TinCow there are the real 7 wonders of the world... not 54

	01-04-2002 21:46									#15
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I have no problems with doing medieval/industrial/modern wonders for the sake of game balance... I'm just curious why they chose to NOT use about half of the REAL wonders.

I too would like to emphasize that the Great Wall is NOT visible from space. Not only is there plenty of factual backing for this (just look it up on the internet), but it's common sense as well. The thing that is incredible about the Wall is its length. The thing that would make it visible would be its width. The width of the Wall varies from 15-30 feet. Do you really think you could see something 30 feet wide from space? Can you see your house? The fact that it is very long means nothing if you can't see any individual section on its own.

	01-04-2002 22:10									#16
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TinCow, it's just because there is no worldwide accepted final list of 7 wonders. A greek or two made a list of seven. Other people made other lists. In other words, there is no official, unquestionable list! Some weren't built by the time your 7 were compiled. Shouldn't the list just grow with the possible additions?

Bleyn, most of the greek 7 were greek. Borders were different 3000 years ago! Halicarnassus, Ephesos, etc, were all greek, but are not in Greece today. The lighthouse and library in Alexandria were built in a greek founded city. The lighthouse was built by greek engineers (designed and overseen, anyway - who knows who actually sweated over moving the blocks). I dunno who built the library...

Last edited by Marquis de Sodaq on 01-04-2002 at 22:24

	01-04-2002 22:23									#17
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quote: Originally posted by TinCow I have no problems with doing medieval/industrial/modern wonders for the sake of game balance... I'm just curious why they chose to NOT use about half of the REAL wonders.

For game balance, what would you suggest the left out wonders do? Remember, if you have 5 wonders that do the same thing (e.g. as the Oracle), it's isn't much of a wonder anymore, is it?

quote: Originally posted by TinCow I too would like to emphasize that the Great Wall is NOT visible from space. ...Do you really think you could see something 30 feet wide from space? Can you see your house? The fact that it is very long means nothing if you can't see any individual section on its own.

I can, and do, in my daily work! Granted, that's with the aid of technology that allows me to see the bald spot on a man's head, too... If being visible from space was a criteria, none of the greek 7 would count, either. So what's the point, people?

The basic question is: Is this man-made structure impressive enough that it was only done once - or couldn't be replicated anything like the original (due to difficulty, uniqueness, or some such quality)? Nobody else has built a Great Wall lately. There are pyramids aplenty, but those at Giza stand apart for size and engineering precision. Everybody with a coastline has built a lighthouse, tho - maybe it was the first or biggest, does anybody know? I doubt there are any municipal councils arguing over where to build a second Taj Mahal.

I just don't understand the need to exclude fantastic constructions just because the greeks didn't know they existed or would exist.

	01-04-2002 23:11									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq I just don't understand the need to exclude fantastic constructions just because the greeks didn't know they existed or would exist.

You don't need to exclude the Great Wall or the Great Library... but why exclude the REAL wonders? It would be simple to add them in without any game balance problems. Frankly, I don't understand why the Oracle is there at all... it wasn't a fabulous structure, it was just a place of worship with lots of temples and a single really expensive temple that spoke like John Edwards. The Oracle was by no means a fabulous construction. Substitute the Temple of Artemis or the Mausoleum for the Oracle and no one would ever notice. As for the one that isn't used and the Statue of Zeus, just stick them in and make them give +1 or +2 happy people or something. Big damn deal.

I'm not saying Firaxis should take out the GW or GL, their effects are very appropriate and work well in the game, but why EXCLUDE some of the real wonders (you can argue all you want, but the term Wonder of the World was created for 7 specific structures). It's not like an extra happiness wonder that expires would unbalance the game.

	02-04-2002 05:40									#19
	wow... Remove this text

wow... ppl around here are kinda negative since I last posted... let me try to crack this...

ok, first, that website that cephyn gave me do not convince me. It just doesn't look convincing. There's a lot of things on the internet, "(just look it up on the internet)"?? u know there's many crazy things online... n e one can put up a website that claims n e thing...

About whether Great Wall is one of the 7 wonders or not: I admit, I don't have factual backings for this one. I'm just speaking from my education of 18 years from Hong Kong, Thailand, and the United States.

Bleyn: I'm not sure if there's "4" Greek wonders... that's why I typed: "like... 4 wonders?"I was like... thinking roughly

Back to the visibility thingy: what is the definition of space to u guys?? to me is when u zoom into the Earth from outer space, the first manmade structure u can c is the Great Wall. If you are talking about somewhere like... right above the atmosphere or... in between the moon and the earth, yeah u might be able to c something else... a airport runway?? u hv n e idea how small that is?? it fits in a city!

and the most outrageous thing: TinCow, the website that u gave us proved itself to be wrong:
"the Great Wall seems to be made largely of materials that have the same color as the surrounding soil."
The Great Wall is surrounded by deep forest, except certain important gates and the extension that is in the desert nowadays.

Here i have some links that I believe to have more credentials:

NASA of US Gov't:
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/radar/sircxsar/gwall.html

Discovery Channel Online
http://www.discovery.com/stories/hi...l/satphoto.html

ok that is all. Bye bye!

	02-04-2002 06:19									#20
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The qualification for being in the game should being able to see it from space. Therefore, the only wonders that should be in the game are the Great Wall in China, and the New York City landfill.

Seriously, this is kind of a ricicoulous argument. I can see the idea for more ancient wonders, like the Temple of Zeus, that are actually considered wonders, but the rest of this argument...

Steele

	02-04-2002 06:22									#21
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quote: Originally posted by spicytimothy and the most outrageous thing: TinCow, the website that u gave us proved itself to be wrong:

I just feel the need to point out that I never posted any links.

I will now though, I was trying to think of some authoritative historical source that people would respect, so I chose the History Channel. Here's what they say about the Wonders of the World list: click here

	02-04-2002 06:46									#22
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You know TinCow, I think you are taking this Wonder deal a little too far, and here's why....

The term Wonder in the Civilization games is somthing (Building, Technology, Idea) captivating and aw inspiring. Not the Wonders literaly the 7 Wonders.

If you want the Sphinx or what not, sure, add them. Just remember, it's a game. This is just an aspect of gameplay.

	02-04-2002 07:49									#23
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quote: Originally posted by spicytimothy wow... ppl around here are kinda negative since I last posted... let me try to crack this... ok, first, that website that cephyn gave me do not convince me. It just doesn't look convincing. There's a lot of things on the internet, "(just look it up on the internet)"?? u know there's many crazy things online... n e one can put up a website that claims n e thing...

gee if you dont believe Snopes, i guess nothing will convince you. Too bad.

For others who are more open minded, here's another site
http://www.jimloy.com/astro/human.htm

I mean honestly, spicyTim, have you BEEN into space? i somehow doubt it -- so ill trust what read from astronauts and from what i can see with my own eyes from photos taken from orbiters.

This guy has been given awards by the Encyclopedia Britannica -- which is pretty cool! Of course, it IS on the web so some will assume its automatically false I'm sure.

Oh here's a NASA site too -- but again, its on the web...so be careful.

http://spacelink.nasa.gov/Instructi....From.Space.pdf


A quote from the BBC:
WHAT TO SEE
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Great Wall of China
Thousands of man-made attractions are well worth a visit. It is often claimed however, that the Great Wall of China is the only one visible from space. This is not the case, in low Earth orbits, many other constructions including the Egyptian pyramids and many modern buildings can be seen. In higher orbits however, even the Wall is impossible to spot. However, at nearly 6400 kilometres long, The Great Wall remains the largest man-made structure on the planet.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/space/...rth/index.shtml

	02-04-2002 08:01									#24
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I apologize TinCow... I meant the one by cephyn... sorry...

	02-04-2002 08:09									#25
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quote: Originally posted by cephyn For others who are more open minded, ... Oh here's a NASA site too -- but again, its on the web...so be careful. http://spacelink.nasa.gov/Instructi....From.Space.pdf

jeez, cephyn, all I did was bring up what my perspective and knowledge is... no need for implying and attacking man!

as for the NASA website, I too post a site from NASA. And I'll will be careful on the web, thank you for your concern, because u never know who u r gonna run into and what twisted ideas u r gonna encounter.

spicytimothy

	02-04-2002 09:50									#26
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What about the light from the Luzor in Vegas, I thought it could be seen from space.

	02-04-2002 12:01									#27
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quote: Originally posted by ALPHA WOLF 64 What about the light from the Luzor in Vegas, I thought it could be seen from space.

haha that's rite i forgot about that one...

	02-04-2002 19:29									#28
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TinCow,
I agree Wonders need a good look-in, they were important to the people of there times and just the fact that the construction of these wonders is an amazing feat, especially considering the time taken to build them and the technology available to the people who built them. You might like this Link

	03-04-2002 10:02									#29
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq

Everybody with a coastline has built a lighthouse, tho - maybe it was the first or biggest, does anybody know?

The lighthouse was a big deal because it was about as big as the statue of liberty, and at the top a bonfire cast the light. This doesn't sound too impressive untill you realize the location, it was in a friggin desert, wood came from Israel, and was carried up every night for many years. The lighthouse was also never duplicated at the scale of the great lighthouse

(excuse this post if I mess up, it is my first)

	03-04-2002 12:10									#30
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Well, the game never claims to have THE seven wonders of the world, just a collection of Great Wonders and Small Wonders.

IMHO, it would be nice to include the rest of the generally accepted seven wonders, but only if you can come up with decent benefits for them. It's kind of hard to come up with something good for the Tomb of Mauselus, for example.

The original and generally accepted seven wonders of the anciant world are mostly Greek because the list was compiled by a Greek (Heroditus I think but don't quote me) during a time when they were the predominant power in the region. It may just as easily be called the seven wonders of the ancient Greek world.

The Great Wall didn't make the list because it wasn't in Greece. Also, at the time it only existed in disconnected piecemeal segments and the Greeks didn't know about it anyway. The most famous part that everyone sees pictures of is a relatively small stretch not far from Beijing that was built in the 17th century and has been restored several times since.

Of the original seven wonders, six were Greek (or Hellenistic at least):

The Oracle at Delphi (in modern day Greece)
The Statue of Zeus at Olympus (in modern day Greece)
The Temple of Artemis at Ephesus (rebuilt after a fire in the 4th century BC) (in modern day Turkey)
The Pharos Lighthouse at Alexandria (in modern day Egypt)
The Tomb of Mauselus (I forget exactly where but it's on the Aegean coast of Anatolia not far from Ephesus - in modern day Turkey)
The Colossus of Rhodes (in modern day Greece)

The seventh, the Great Pyramids at Giza (just outside of Cairo, Egypt), were built by Egyptians but the territory was controlled by Greeks at the time the list was compiled. This is also the only one of the seven that remains standing to this day.


Also, many man-made objects can be seen from space, especially if you use a spy satellite. The Great Wall is the only individual man-made object discernable from the surface of the moon with the naked eye. Other man-made artifacts, particularly many city lights, are visible from the moon as well, but they are a conglomeration of many objects seen as one.