02-04-2002 09:36									#1
	My Last Game Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Okay, so I followed your advice and added memory (bringing it up to 384 megs) so I could play on a larger map without it taking the rest of my natural life to complete a game. I built cities like crazy at the beginning, ending up with over thirty. I built the Super Science city with the Colossus, Copernicus Observatory, Newton's College, and the SETI program. I also built Theory of Evolution, Hoover Dam, Leonardo's Workshop, Sistine Chapel, Bach Cathedral, and finally the Apollo Program. I stayed out of war by kissing up to my neighbors and building a strong defense--over 100 Mechanized Infantry, a dozen Modern Armor, 40 artillery, a dozen bombers, a dozen jet fighters, and several naval units. I was TWO MOVES AWAY from getting The Laser and completing my spaceship, when all of a sudden for NO REASON the French and Iroquois, with whom all interchanges had been "POLITE" for 4,000 years, declare war on me. I could have held them off, but I was so disgusted I nuked both their capitals with ICBMs and quit.

People, this game SUCKS. There is NO WAY to win peacefully. Anyway who claims that they've won a science, cultural, or diplomatic victory without a major war is a liar. If the people who designed this monstrosity thinks that this is what real civilization is about, then they must be very depressed.

And even with 384 megs of RAM it still runs slower than molasses.

	02-04-2002 10:09									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

What real-world civilization has gone 6,000 years and become prominent without participating in a few major wars along the way? I do wish it were less important to conquer a good chunk of the world to build up your financial and industrial base, but you'll have a hard time convincing me it's unrealistic.

Nathan

	02-04-2002 14:50									#3
	Get a bigger avatar today!

People have won the game with a single city. I suspect they couldn't do that if they engaged in a major war.

War is part of both civilization the real world and Civilization the game. If you were playing against real people you can be sure you would never go through a game without many major wars.

YOU made the war major by having a temper tantrum. Tossing nukes because the big bad AI decided continued peace was a sure way to lose. At that the AI clearly waited too long to attack you.

All you needed to do was finish the tech and launch. I can launch on the same turn I get the Laser tech. In my last game I thought it was funny the way the Iroqouis attacked just before I launched. I won even before I could launch a counter attack. They should have built a Space Ship themselves.

I have no sympathy for people that insist on playing huge maps and then complain the game is slow. Play on standard maps if you have no tolerance for long games. I personally am not a big proponent of self-flaggelation. You may do so if you wish though.


You had the game won.

	02-04-2002 15:17									#4
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: when all of a sudden for NO REASON the French and Iroquois, with whom all interchanges had been "POLITE" for 4,000 years, declare war on me

Is this so unbelieveable? I think these things are quite realistic and have always been a good part for the civ games. NAtions in the real world go through different periods. In some of these periods they are very warlike and aggresive, wheras in others they are very peaceful. A good example would be Hitler's Germany and Germany nowadays. Look at the difference, and thats only in 50 or so years!

It's part of human civilisation that nations will from time to time become aggresive and pursue very aggressive policies seeking new land and new resources. This has been simulated quite well with the Frecnh and Iriquois atacking you (an obviously rich and superior nation).

Wouldn't the game be boring if no-one ever got aggresive and declared war or went on Hitler-like conquests? Well it would be very civilisation-like. That's for sure.

	02-04-2002 15:19									#5
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: would be very civilisation-like

Wouldn't be very civilisation-like. Sorry.

	02-04-2002 15:40									#6
	Got spare money?

the objective of the AI is to win, not to "act civilized"

	02-04-2002 15:48									#7
	Suffering from ads?

The USA has been around 226 years, and has fought in 10 major wars. The British Empire was around for hundreds of years, and has fought in hundreds of wars. China has fought wars, Persia fought wars, the Babylonians fought wars. The Japanese, French, Iroquois, Germans, Romans, Greeks, Aztecs, Zulu, Russians, Indians, and the Egyptians all fought wars. Every group of people that has been called a civilization has engaged in some kind of combat.

Steele

	02-04-2002 18:38									#8
	Re: My Last Game Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by bobbyd1947 I was TWO MOVES AWAY from getting The Laser and completing my spaceship, when all of a sudden for NO REASON the French and Iroquois, with whom all interchanges had been "POLITE" for 4,000 years, declare war on me.

Emphases added. Wanna re-read that?

	02-04-2002 19:02									#9
	Re: Re: My Last Game Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by LarryLard Emphases added. Wanna re-read that?

nonsense! the AI should ignore the fact that you're about to win and just carry on minding it's own business!

	02-04-2002 23:17									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Mmmmh... In my last game, everyone was annoyed at me although I have a "diplomatic" strategy and try to be loved. Although everybody else traded nationalism, no one, even my only Indian friends, accepted for even a huge amount of money...
Well, I guess sometimes the AI is surprising and takes something into account you don't think it does.
For example, I think that in this game, people disliked me because I had a much bigger army than usual (even if I didn't go to war).

	02-04-2002 23:44									#11
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Spiffor,

Actually, having a large army and not using it should boost your diplomatic relations with the AI. It means you are more powerful (they respect that) and your reputation is also good (no breaking treaties and such). However, if your large military came at the expense of culture, that may explain it. Culture also has a positive effect on diplomatic relations, and if your culture was inferior, it may have hurt your standing.

Still, no matter how nice and honorable you are, sometimes the AI just gets jealous of you. I have noticed (often) that if I have several luxuries available for trade, but choose not to trade them to an AI, they get "annoyed' or even "furious" with me. The moment I trade them a luxury or two, they're "polite."

-Arrian

	03-04-2002 00:20									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

One by one people who wanted to love this game throw in the towel and post their frustration here only to be treated with contempt by the choirboys.

Personally, I am Civ3 free. As is my registry after a through scrubbing.

Please wait..............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

	03-04-2002 01:00									#13
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I think I'd be happier if the AI did attack me when I was about to spaceship win. It's never happened so far. I wondered if your game was played at deity where the AI can be fairly aggressive but I take it from your possesion of so many Wonders that this game was played at a lower level.

	03-04-2002 01:07									#14
	Remove this text

The computer should read your mind.

Anyway, sounds good to me. I think the Civ's should of attacked you with relentess force, they decided that you were too close to winning.


Anyway, everyone has usually bought a faster computer after playing any Civilization game in the Past, usually to play the game faster in the future. Its part of the appeal of the game.
One would hope the game takes a faster computer to play, so one has something to look forward too.

Civ II was just too easy.

	03-04-2002 01:10									#15
	Civ3 is NOT SimCity! Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by SpencerH I think I'd be happier if the AI did attack me when I was about to win. It's never happened so far.

Exactly! This is NOT SimCity! The AI should try to win & instead it's only interested in getting the best deal for the day. Usually, most AI Civs will let you complete your spaceship in peace if you give them a luxury and/or technology for free. Giving into the Babylonian's demand for Ivory... yes just Ivory... so I could finish my spaceship in peace is when I 1st noticed this. Talking about a stupid AI... and some people want it even more stupid???

	03-04-2002 01:21									#16
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

LOL!

I do not have to look very far in this forum to find people complaining that the game is made for "builders" to win - conquerors are discriminated against!

Here we have the opposite case. FWIW, my opinion is that since the most recent patch, the game is more prone to picking a fight in order to challenge your lead.

My current example is a game where I have gradually accumulated a tech lead and am in the process of researching every modern tech except the spaceship ones (except where necessary to achieve the others). Minding my own business, sharing luxuries with everybody for any reason (I have lots of luxuries), huge armies and substantial navies.

Quite correctly, the AI for my closest competitor, the Americans, figured out that I had a substantial lead that was growing. Bingo, they declared war on me for having a ship in their waters!

Then the piling on began. The Zulus detected my spy and declared war. Since both of my new enemies were on a different continent, I built new armies (I have to guard a border against the Romans still) and loaded them on ships. One pile of transports was sailing to meet its escort but was a square short of it - no big deal I thought! That is, until the Greeks suddenly declared war without provocation and destroyed 16 units of modern armor on transports.

And you know what? I am as happy as a pig in slime about it. I like having the AI challenge me.

Anyway, my long story boils down to this: I think that the AI now is more prone to challenging the player with a lead and that it also do that with "piling on" of countries once one has declared war. I guess another thought is that I would not blame the designers for being confused if one group wants more building and the other wants more fighting.

GB

	03-04-2002 01:34									#17
	Full PM-box? Change here!

One can include 1 to 5 of the 'win' conditions also.

With CivII, one had a choice, build a spaceship to win. or play a game of Conquest (Bloodlust)!

Pick the type of game you want to play.

If like CivII, only have the 'build a spaceship to get to Alpha Centauri' option to win on, and the Specific Abilities also 'Off".



------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The computer should never win, and it may not, if you play this game long enough, except for the upper levels.

	03-04-2002 01:52									#18
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Is there a relationship between early game bloodlust and late game AI aggression. I usually play a builder type game and leave my enemies alone (ie allow other Ai civs to keep em under wraps) and I've never been attacked while building the spaceship (I usually play monarch and emperor).

	03-04-2002 07:50									#19
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by CCJames Is this so unbelieveable? I think these things are quite realistic and have always been a good part for the civ games. NAtions in the real world go through different periods. In some of these periods they are very warlike and aggresive, wheras in others they are very peaceful. A good example would be Hitler's Germany and Germany nowadays. Look at the difference, and thats only in 50 or so years! It's part of human civilisation that nations will from time to time become aggresive and pursue very aggressive policies seeking new land and new resources. This has been simulated quite well with the Frecnh and Iriquois atacking you (an obviously rich and superior nation). Wouldn't the game be boring if no-one ever got aggresive and declared war or went on Hitler-like conquests? Well it would be very civilisation-like. That's for sure.

The REALITY is civs don't just go from Polite or Gracious for thousands of years to treacherously declaring war on you; political relations DETERIORATE over time. The stupid AI does not consider that, or personal trust, being a mere bean counter adding up units and "power", etc.

On rare occasions a real civ might have a revolt or civil war or such and quickly end up with a new crazy, aggresive leader launching a sudden war. I am hard-pressed to think of examples of this. Germany-Soviets, and U.S.-Japan, in 1941, had Icy relations at best. "Icy relations" - a good description missing from Civ III, unfortunately.

	03-04-2002 08:23									#20
	Realistic? LOL!!! Suffering from ads?

No, Virginia, Civilizations do not attack one another out of the sky blue just because one is about to "win". Wars occur for complex reasons--expansion of territory, need for natural resources, religious differences, lust for power, even occasionally (though not as often as the game insinuates) because of diplomatic insults. None of these applied to my situation. The A1 attacked me without warning or any kind of provocation ONLY because I was about to build the spaceship. That DOES NOT HAPPEN IN REALITY. Get a grip, guys. And thanks for ruining a great game. Thanks for nothing.

	03-04-2002 08:30									#21
	Re: Realistic? LOL!!! Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by bobbyd1947 No, Virginia, Civilizations do not attack one another out of the sky blue just because one is about to "win". Wars occur for complex reasons--expansion of territory, need for natural resources, religious differences, lust for power, even occasionally (though not as often as the game insinuates) because of diplomatic insults. None of these applied to my situation. The A1 attacked me without warning or any kind of provocation ONLY because I was about to build the spaceship. That DOES NOT HAPPEN IN REALITY. Get a grip, guys. And thanks for ruining a great game. Thanks for nothing.

have you played the previous civ games? If you have, then how could you say they have ruined it, since warfare has been integral to the game throughout its evolution.

	03-04-2002 11:50									#22
	Re: Realistic? LOL!!! <- Exactly Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Coracle The REALITY is civs don't just go from Polite or Gracious for thousands of years to treacherously declaring war on you; political relations DETERIORATE over time.

quote: Originally posted by bobbyd1947 The A1 attacked me without warning or any kind of provocation ONLY because I was about to build the spaceship. That DOES NOT HAPPEN IN REALITY.

This may be a shock to you, but "in reality" there is no Alpha Centuri! "In reality", the world does not end in 2050. "In reality", America, English, Germany, & many others did not exist in 4000 BC. "In reality", Civilization3 is a competitive GAME with 1 winner at the end that players strive to obtain, not a game to make illusionary friends.

	03-04-2002 12:01									#23
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Thank you bobbyd1947, your thread has inspired me in ways I never thought it could. I am actually going to reinstall Civ3 again and try to beat the game on Diety with 1 city and see if I really *can* win the Space Race without fighting an aggressive war or moving a single military unit outside my cultural boundaries. Should be painful, but interesting.

	03-04-2002 12:51									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

In the Input boxes, one can also pick "None" and not just random.

Maybe, you people need sandbox mode to play the game by yourself, with yourself, all to yourself.

Never had that option with Civ II.

Just wondering!

I use to play with only 3 civ's sometimes, just to play differently in Civ II.

Just wondering!

	03-04-2002 13:26									#25
	Re: Re: Realistic? LOL!!! <- Exactly Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Pyrodrew "In reality", Civilization3 is a competitive GAME with 1 winner at the end that players strive to obtain, not a game to make illusionary friends.

But what if some players only have illusionary freinds?

	03-04-2002 15:49									#26
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: In the Input boxes, one can also pick "None" and not just random

Can you actually play by yourself?!? That would be... interesting.

Steele

	03-04-2002 15:57									#27
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

steele. Don't encourage the killing of kittens. There's enough carnage out there already.

	03-04-2002 16:00									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

NYE: WTF? What are you talking about? Are you drunk? Kittens?

Steele

	03-04-2002 16:02									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Budweiser is my friend. So are kittens.

ROTFLMOL

Last edited by notyoueither on 03-04-2002 at 16:08

	03-04-2002 16:13									#30
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

My apologies steele.

I take it you have not seen the pix with the caption

*Everytime you ********** God kills a kitten.*

I'll post it if I can figure out how to. I've seen it once on one computer. It's pretty funny.

Please forgive me for my irreverence.