02-04-2002 22:39									#1
	Barbarians Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Hello,
I am really new to the game. I am currently building up my civ, I have encountered the Egyptians and the Chinese. They both hate each other but I get along with both of them. Even when they are trying to get me to fight the other I refuse and still end up being friends with both of them. Now the barbarians come along and demand gold from me and do not want to negotiate. Of course I send them away and they automatically take over a city, and then another. I am wondering how to avoid these creatures and build my civilization with as little war as possible. I know some of you are wondering why I would want to do it this way. Well like I said I am new and would like to just get the concept of building and succeeding first. Once I get that down then yes World domination here I come. If I am approaching this in the wrong way then I would like to know. Thanks

	02-04-2002 23:09									#2
	Put an end to popups!

you can set barbarians to "Huts only". at that setting, barbs only appear when you open a hut.

or set it to raging hordes and learn how to defend your cities too

	02-04-2002 23:20									#3
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Thanks for the response, I will remember that first one. I was kind of forced to learn the second now. Oh well it is what you need to learn to deal with when building a civ!

	03-04-2002 00:06									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

you're welcome. be sure to check out the great library at some point, lots of info in there, but some of it's rather advanced

	03-04-2002 00:56									#5
	Tired of ads?

Where is the great library? The game. cd or elsewhere?

	03-04-2002 01:51									#6
	Put an end to popups!

the thread in this forum

Great Library Index by Scouse Gits

	03-04-2002 03:34									#7
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

great! thanks once again!

	03-04-2002 08:10									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

build some diplomats(Writing) and turn invading barbs into honorable defenders.Barbs are relatively cheap to buy.You can often get it back by nailing the leader with his own converted troops.Thats why many like raging hoardes as leaders are 150 gold each.
Buy back your cities from barbs with dips also.The cities are dirt cheap and come with at least 1 unit,probably several.

	03-04-2002 17:20									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

you can also misuse a barbarian city as a unit supermarket with your diplo to create a stream of cheap none units, completely free off maintenance.

	03-04-2002 20:25									#10
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Thoddy you can also misuse a barbarian city as a unit supermarket with your diplo to create a stream of cheap none units, completely free off maintenance.

But be on ly sure to have enough money

	03-04-2002 20:29									#11
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Sounds Interesting I think I will give it a try! I have been able to take back over the cities that have been taken from me. I did realize when reading the manual that I chose raging hordes. So I should expect to see allot of them. I have found that I am spending more time on the military to defend my cities from them then actually advancing in science. I have gotten far but I do believe I am behind the rest of the countries. At the end of the turn and it ranks all the cities, is this done by population or other stats?

	04-04-2002 04:25									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

During the very early years the biggest threat to your civilisation is Barbs. The first research goal is Monarchy - but usually you will have to research one tech not leading to your target. Make sure you choose Horseback Riding when this opportunity comes around. The Barb Archer defends at 1 NOT 2. He is easily killed by Horsemen when not defending on favourable terrain.

---------------

SG(2)

	04-04-2002 11:41									#13
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Hi unix - just read your post with a little more care.

You're not playing at deity are you? Barbarians only demand cash from empty cities and if you have a couple of these it sounds as if you are expanding without martail law - a 'must have' at deity.

Don't be fooled by the game pushing you into Phalanges as soon as you have Bronze Working. Warriors are good enough as long as you have the odd Horseman to back them up - see my colleague's post above.

If it helps, my (non-capital, non SSC) build list is something like Warrior, Settler, Settler, Horse, Caravan, Settler, Caravans for ever - but this is an ICS style development - not for everybody.

	04-04-2002 19:18									#14
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Listen to Scouse Gits.... i defend with warriors too.....on deity martial law/happiness is your biggest problem.....having one horse for every three or four cities is generally enough....make sure you uncover enough terrain around your ciites so you don't have barbs appearing out of the dark....

every once in awhile you will need two horses..but by that time your inner ciites should be connected thus ,you can send one of your horses guarding your empires back to the front or vice a versa

horses are also better b/c you can chase down barb kings and earn some money....

the only drawback to picking horses over bronze is the fact that you wont' have a tech to start wonder building with.....thus reducing your chance at building all the early wonders.....

however , this is good practice for when you step in to the MP arena and square off against some of the heavyweights

	04-04-2002 21:17									#15
	Suffering from ads?

No not playing on the deity level, I have found through continuation of playing the game that if I use two musketeers and a catapult I can take my cities back and capture there’s with no problem. Now they all seem to not bother me but just the other countries. They were attacking the Chinese which I have a permanent peace treaty, so I go over and attack and get rid of the barbarians. Well then they tell me they will withdraw from the treaty if I do not get out of there land! Ha! Thanks of all of the post.

	04-04-2002 23:23									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

War & SG,

I'm surprised that you can defend with just warriors. I used to lose enough cities to barbs with 2 warrior defenders that now I always build one phalanx fairly early on.

What barb attackers are you referring to -- archers? A barb legionaire will destory a warrior.

Or do you build city walls? I tend not to in general, preferring to spend my shields/money elsewhere. I put walls only in border cities or isolated outposts.

	05-04-2002 02:14									#17
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Don’t know, they are red and have the shield, I had a couple of beers so it may have taken more then that to kill the barb, but it did seem that when I got enough of mine around them they did not last.

	05-04-2002 02:37									#18
	Put an end to popups!

Campo a barb legion definitely will take out the warrior but for the most part if you can keep the barbs from attacking ....warriors are just fine

	05-04-2002 03:01									#19
	Tired of ads?

If you have only one city, any defender(warrior) will stop any barb attack cold. With two cities, this may still be true. After that, you must protect your cities. The barbs attack strength will probably win over any defender if you let them get close. I select horseback riding as soon as I can. After building a warrior, then a settler, I build a horseman to defend the city(by attacking) and send the warrior out to explore. They don't cover as much ground, but they reveal the terrain fast enough to let me place my new cities well. On raging hordes, I leave huts alone until they are part of a new city. After that, nothing bad can come out of them. You can attack a barb leader with anything and get his gold. At raging hordes, the $150 is huge in the early game.

	05-04-2002 07:38									#20
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Campo War & SG, What barb attackers are you referring to -- archers? A barb legionaire will destory a warrior. Or do you build city walls? I tend not to in general, preferring to spend my shields/money elsewhere. I put walls only in border cities or isolated outposts.

The very early Barbs are Archers. They attack at 3 so you must have the first strike with a Horseman to kill them before they do any damage. As War mentioned keep your cities well connected with roads so the local "heavy" can reach any city quickly.

Unless there are very good reasons, Walls are a luxury I can't afford. On occasions when the local Horse can't make it in one turn I prefer to move a warrior out of a city next to the Barb to buy time. This sacrifice of 10 shields is preferable to losing a head of population when the city is attacked.

By the time Legions appear you should have some suitable units to deal with them. Diplomats are often the answer - buy one to kill the other.

Building a vet Phalanx in the early game is useful if you believe you can set up the Barb King for 150 gold. Fortify the defender on decent terrain and hope the Barb Archer loses. Then have a horsie track down the ransom.

For general Martial Law at the start of the game I rarely think beyond Warriors.

----------------------------

SG(2)

	05-04-2002 18:17									#21
	Got spare money?

quote: If you have only one city, any defender(warrior) will stop any barb attack cold. With two cities, this may still be true.

Not true with two cities, at least not in v2.42. I lost my second city (defended by a warrior, attacked by a barb archer) in the last game I played.

geo & SG,
Okay, I now understand your point about "defending" with a horseman by attacking. A barb archer will defeat warriors in an unwalled city. But you're saying to attack the archer with a horseman before it ever reaches the city. That point was going over my head before. I've been relying on defense only, because any horsemen I have in the early stage are out exploring. Maybe I'll try keeping one back and using warriors only.

I don't think a phalanx needs to be vet to withstand a barb archer attack, at least if it's on terrain with any defense bonus. Would probably go down on grassland or plains though.

	05-04-2002 19:19									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

You're welcome - it is easy to forget that that which is now 'obvious' to oneself was once knowledge that had to be learned - oftimes painfully.

The invulnerable defender only occurs in the first and only city - if you lose your second city the first is no longer protected ...

	05-04-2002 20:25									#23
	Get a bigger avatar today!

As an addition, only the last defender of your only city is immune to barbarian attack. As noted, this bonus is lost once you build another city, regardless of what happens afterwards.

	05-04-2002 20:31									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I found out for certain that the second city unit can't defend. I have posted in another thread a save with no palace. Try it.
At deity, barbarians attack at 150%, so even vet phalanxes will lose.

	05-04-2002 20:51									#25
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: At deity, barbarians attack at 150%, so even vet phalanxes will lose.

Even with a terrain bonus? I'm sure I've had phalanxes hold out against at least archers. I think even non-vets but I'm not positive.

	06-04-2002 02:16									#26
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

An attack advantage (e.g. 3 vs. 2) does not guarantee victory - it increases the odds greatly. Your green phalanx can sometimes hold out against a legion - just don't expect him to.

And don't get heady against the AI with the last defender trick. Even a diplomat will hold the barbarians at bay, but that bonus does not work against the AI.

I'll dig up and bump my Info: Combat thread. The newer browsers can read up on everything they need to know!

	08-04-2002 01:58									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

War and SG's points are indicative of a general strategic maxim: passive defence is rarely optimal. If you sit and defend you'll need more units even against poor AI opposition. Counterattack and scouting (diplos are best) are critical.

	08-04-2002 17:21									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: passive defence is rarely optimal

I agree completely. But at the very beginning, when the only choice is between warrior and phalanx, I like to have one phalanx defender in each city. Neither is worth anything as an attacker.

	08-04-2002 22:51									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

But in the very early game those 10 shields are soooooo valuable!! Think, four cities with Phalanxes (?Phalanges?) equals a Settler - a 25% increase in the Empire -- I know which I take - every time!

	09-04-2002 06:03									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

At deity with raging hordes, my first tech is horseback riding, if I don't have it already. After that, I usually can rush a horseman if I need to to save a city. The cost is the save as a phalanx, but more effective.