04-04-2002 10:29									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Zannhart >>But I think that in the eyes of the world, skyscrapers and such are seen as very American in the sense of architecture and is something that is very strongly asscociated with the US, and that was what I was really trying to get at with my post.<< So something that is very strongly associated with the US and is put into this video game means this whole game was widely designed towards the US? Since according to you so many people are 'missing the point' with your post it sounds as if you need to start rewording your posts, and not that we are just reading them all wrong. Or are we all just too dense to understand you? >>I can't say I am very surprised, but you must be really sensitive if you would find my post toe "bashing America". << >>You are getting me all wrong. Did I claim the US not to be a civilized country?<< >>I mean it's enough that the US is a civilization by itself (ok, don't make me define civilization). << Yeah...kind of sounded to me as if you were claiming the US was't a 'civilization', and if that's the case you were indeed 'bashing' the US. But please do explain the point of that phrase there, since we all don't understand you.

I said it "was enough that [in the game] the US is a civilization by itself", were [] is the point I was trying to make. The reason for me feeling this way about the US in Civ3, is simply because it hasn't been around very long, but of course it would be crazy of the developers not to put it in there. I'm sorry that you were able to make out something else of it... I didn't mean to 'bash' the US.

	04-04-2002 10:33									#32
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For the sake of argument, lets say that skyscrapers make people think of America. What kind of structure would say "metropolis" to an Asian or European?

On a similar thought, to me I had no attachment to the WTC, but every one of my foreign friends had fond thoughts of it as some gateway to america. Just shows how cultures can see the same thing differently.

	04-04-2002 10:36									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Zannhart >>But I think that in the eyes of the world, skyscrapers and such are seen as very American in the sense of architecture and is something that is very strongly asscociated with the US, and that was what I was really trying to get at with my post. << >>But as of right now, I still believe that skyscrapers are something that is very much associated with the US. Probably isn't in 20-30 years.<< First you speak for the world "In the eyes of the world", then you speak for just yourself "I still believe", make up your mind who you're speaking for

I hope you have better things to do than to going through my messages letter by letter. I've been typing a whole lot in the past hour and I so dearly apologize for not being consistent. I don't really see how it changes anything though. Just because I write in the second paragraph that "I still believe...", doesn't mean I all of a sudden back off from my earlier claim that "in the eyes....".

	04-04-2002 10:54									#34
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quote: [SIZE=1] (Or at least that is what we like to say about our gutted industrial sectors... sigh)

Amen! Our industries are getting the shaft in almost every possible way. As the son of a steel worker I can observe our "transition into a 'post industrial society'" first hand, watching my dad get laid off because we buy steel made by 13 year old slave laborers in Thailand. Don't even get me started about the textile industry ( lead by Nike, the most despicable, oppurtunistic, exploitative, treasonous company in the world. Cost to make shoes in Indonesian prison camp manufacturing plant: $3. Market price for shoes: $110.) God bless Free trade! (You can probably guess where I get the name Nationalist from) anyway, end of rant. The game isn't overly Americanized. Just look at the many intelligent arguments throughout the thread.

	04-04-2002 12:46									#35
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Why's everyone targeting awesomedude? All he did was bring up a thought... even if u think it's wrong, there's really no need for all these word-examining...

Let me try to express my opinion politely:

From when I grew up, which is Hong Kong, all the buildings i've ever seen are tall skyskrappers, Seldom less than 10 floors. So i don't think tall buidings are American symbols... i mean, there aren't that many American cities that u picture with tall buildings... Miami is associated w/ the beaches, Los Angeles with Hollywood, Santa Monica and Bev Hills etc, San Fran with Golden Bridge... u know what i mean?? Rather, if u look elsewhere in the world, cities are mostly associated w/ biuldings... Tokyo with the Tokyo Tower, Hong Kong with the Central view from Victoria Habor, Shanghai with the Pudong Commerical sector... etc etc.

In other words, there's a lot of American tech at the end of the game, yes, but they did create them and they ARE the most prominent of recent years AND they are easily implemented in the gameplay. I honestly can't think of any other recent inventions that are worthy enough of being featured AND can be implemented into the game AND has not been featured in another way... Maybe the One Country Two System idea by Deng XiaoPing??

spicytimothy

	04-04-2002 13:27									#36
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Ive finally manage to read through all these posts .. boy, there are some sensitive soals here

IMO there are some things which are questionable, but lets not forget the game was designed and coded by Americans .... and im pretty damn certain, if it had been designed and coded by any other nation, the results would be pretty much the same biased outlook, if not even more towards there own history and culture in some countries cases .. Im sure we can think of a few

You have to accept, we all see the world through the model of our own perspections, which are completely shaped by our culture. and thank God we are all different, the idea that were all going to be American in 30 years or so is horrendous .. as the British discovered, try to make India British, and you end up becoming Indian yourself..

Long live our differences .. cos without them, there really is no Civilization game ..

As soon as the scenario editor is fixed, and we can actually edit the game without it crashing .. we can all get to work on Civ 3 the British Patch, Civ 3 the French patch etc .. and play the game as we feel it should be played.

Last edited by The Viceroy on 04-04-2002 at 13:42

	04-04-2002 17:05									#37
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I really can't stand all this argument... The game was made by americans working for an american company, and one of its most prominent markets is the USA. So what's the big deal? Of course they have to include USA as a civilization... Imagine thousands of players on the USA opening their Civ3 boxes and realizing that they couldn't play as the americans... It's a common sense thing to include USA as a civ, even though we all know USA is not a civilization by itself...

	04-04-2002 21:02									#38
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Ok, this has been a pretty pointless discussion, and I really shouldn't prolong it by posting yet another time, yet still I can't resist .

It seems that I need to repeat that my initial post was only my personal thought/opinion/preference, and not an argument, as stated in the first sentence of it ("As far as I'm concerned...).

quote: Originally posted by Alexnm The game was made by americans working for an american company, and one of its most prominent markets is the USA. So what's the big deal? Of course they have to include USA as a civilization...

I'm not sure as to what I wrote that made you write this reply. I did write however, that it would be 'crazy of the developers not to put it in there', which would be pretty much the same point that you're making above.

	04-04-2002 21:03									#39
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dont start that debate again. let me end it here.

quote: from http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=civilization civ·i·li·za·tion Pronunciation Key (sv-l-zshn) n. An advanced state of intellectual, cultural, and material development in human society, marked by progress in the arts and sciences, the extensive use of record-keeping, including writing, and the appearance of complex political and social institutions. The type of culture and society developed by a particular nation or region or in a particular epoch: Mayan civilization; the civilization of ancient Rome. The act or process of civilizing or reaching a civilized state. Cultural or intellectual refinement; good taste. Modern society with its conveniences: returned to civilization after camping in the mountains.

	04-04-2002 21:05									#40
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i believe we fit into 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 is just a silly one

if you honestly dont think that American culture is different from Englands, i dare you to come here acting all british

	04-04-2002 21:23									#41
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if you wanna be realistic, the stealth unit should be an american UU do to the fact no one else seems to have them. i know many people dont like america being included in this game but when i see aztec modern armor and bombers ripping up my territory , i quickly get over the fact there where no americans in the beginning. maybe we need to create a mod that doesnt let america in untill the 1700's but then allows them to fly by everyone in science,ecomomy and be the only civ with f-15,aegis ,sdi and stealth. other then a change like that , i think the americans belong in the game

	04-04-2002 21:25									#42
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quote: Originally posted by reefer addict if you wanna be realistic, the stealth unit should be an american UU do to the fact no one else seems to have them. i know many people dont like america being included in this game but when i see aztec modern armor and bombers ripping up my territory , i quickly get over the fact there where no americans in the beginning. maybe we need to create a mod that doesnt let america in untill the 1700's but then allows them to fly by everyone in science,ecomomy and be the only civ with f-15,aegis ,sdi and stealth. other then a change like that , i think the americans belong in the game

they'd yell even more about the americans getting special abilities.

and besides, thats nto civ

	04-04-2002 21:29									#43
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awesomedude: I did not say that you start this argument. Problem is, other posters started to defend America as a civ, and I realize that you did not say it was not. (Man, this is becoming confuse...).

One thing is for sure: I agree with you about the late game "americanization".

Uber: America clearly fit into 1, 2, 3 and 4. No doubts about that. I just think that it should appear on the Industrial times, that's all...

	04-04-2002 22:18									#44
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX dont start that debate again. let me end it here.

Your post is utterly pointless and off topic. Did you read anything I wrote? Can't let you end the discussion like that...

quote: Originally posted by Alexnm Awesomedude: I did not say that you start this argument. Problem is, other posters started to defend America as a civ, and I realize that you did not say it was not. (Man, this is becoming confuse...). One thing is for sure: I agree with you about the late game "americanization". Uber: America clearly fit into 1, 2, 3 and 4. No doubts about that. I just think that it should appear on the Industrial times, that's all...

Yes, this is becoming very confused, but let's leave it at that. Thanks for being civil about it anyway.

	04-04-2002 23:28									#45
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Reading the original post, I have to wonder why people think stealth technology is so "American"? Just because America got there first?

I've seen reports of other countries now trying to develop their own stealth technology, such as France. China is no doubt hard at work on a stealth aircraft of their own. Ironically enough, all these developments are motivating America to pioneer anti-stealth technologies, possibly for the day when America no longer has the monopoly on stealth.

The same question applies to other technologies that seem so "American." Integrated defense is one of them. So what if America is the only one pioneering it against world opinion? Just because other countries can't or won't develop it, does it mean that it should not be considered a legitimate advance in technology?

Let's face it, America really is the pioneer of many, if not all, modern technologies. The only advance America is not pioneering in is environmentalism, and even in this area, the world is expecting America to carry a bigger burden of the responsibility, simply because America's industrial strength is that much bigger than anyone else's.

By the way, it's curious to see Ecology placed as a requirement for Synthetic Fibers and Stealth. I'm pretty sure America developed stealth aircraft and synthetic fibers without the help of those green hippies.

	04-04-2002 23:49									#46
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I'm not questioning whether America should be in the game, that's a question for the civilizations forum. Although, I never pick them because of a gut feeling, it's the same for the English, Iroquois and Zulus.

The skyscraper debate, well, it's a bit OT so who am I to complain?

Now, the wonders which are 'American'.

Wall Street: I think that this one is pretty silly. What's wrong with just a 'national stock exchange' or something? It's a small wonder, but it's not like there are 'Wall Streets' all over the world.

Hoover Dam: There are bigger and better dams.

SETI program: It's a charity in real life, is it not? Still, that big radio telescope is reasonable candidate for a wonder.

The UN: Can't really argue with this one. Thanks America.

Manhattan project: Well, I'd prefer this to be a small wonder, but as it stands it's okay.

Apollo programme: Since it's a small wonder, it should have a more generic name. The Soviet work on space station development was just as important, if not more so, for establishing a human presence in space.

The Pentagon: Hmm. On the one hand it's an impressive, distinctive structure, but on the other hand it's not like a military command centre must have five sides. Change it to something like 'military nerve-centre' OR upgrade it to a great wonder.

Strategic missile defence: Doesn't have a blatantly American name, and the Soviets toyed with the idea as well, so I guess it's off the hook.

Well, that's all the wonders. Oh, for the record I disagree with the Forbidden Palace name as well.

There is another American tech which I think is a unjustified addition: Smart weapons. I really don't think that this is anywhere near something like writing or industrialisation. It's a concept which is infused with a heady dosage of propaganda, and may not be a good as it is cracked up to be.

Whenever the US and it's allies get into a conflict (every six months or so it seems) the smart weapons are touted as being low on 'collateral damage' but for every laser-guided bomb, there are plenty of dumb bombs like those daisy cutters used against the Taleban. And of course smart weapons are expensive, and often go wrong.

That's all for now. Comments/flamings?

	05-04-2002 00:56									#47
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Wall Street should be named for the first one, wasnt that the London Exchange?

I saw hoover dam on a list of modern wonders years ago. Not so much for its power production but for the taming of the Colorado and its huge benefit downstream. Given the game benefit, something like the Tennessee Valley Authority would have been a more appropriate name.

Manhattan should have been a small wonder. I dont understand the concept at all of making this a major wonder benefitting all. thank goodness the taliban didnt get the bomb.

Apollo Program should have been named for the Soviet space program, after all the Russians got there first.

I like the idea of naming wonders after specific real life things. I like the pentagon for that reason over a generic name. BTW, do other countires have specific names for theirs?


BTW, no flames were produced by this reply
Yeah, whats with the forbidden palace? Doesnt that usually refer to China's attempt to have been isolationists at some point?

Whats wrong with smart weapons? i think its drastically cut down on collateral damage. Imagine trying to hit targets inside large cities using old-fashioned bombs. I bet casualities would have been far greater than the occasion wayward smart bomb.

	05-04-2002 01:44									#48
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quote: Originally posted by nato However you forgot the modern armor! It is an M1 looking tank. This goes right with your post as American ... and also in a way you probably didn't think! One of the big special things about the M1 is the armor and the chobham brick thingies ... this goes right with stealth and AEGIS.

Could be he didn't mention it because chabram armour is a Brittish invention. The Abrahms wouldn't have been built without it as tanks were fast becoming expensive targets for cheap anti tank weapons.

	05-04-2002 02:01									#49
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I think as I'm not american nor have anything against them (I believe some actitudes of the american government sucks, but my own goverment sometimes do **** too, besides I thank america for flooding the world with hamburgers and hollywood blockbusters, for I love them).

I can see much of the confusion here was made because the americans are very sensive to critics about everything that's connected to them. They're not wrong to do so, as they have been overly criticized, and 90% of people flaming the US say ****. US is a superpower, and if they commit a very little misteak the can **** up a coutry due to they power. Thanks god you haven't done serious mistakes lately.

I believe that it would be possible, and would be good if done, that the modern era could be a little bit less american. But just a little, because america is ahead, so the more developed you get the more you'll look like the US. But just in a sense.

However, if the "american flavor" was taken out of the game completly, it would make it unrealistic, for all of us are influenced a bit by the american civilization.

Btw, not only modern era is too american, but industrial era is too european. Just look to Shaka Zulu. But it's impossible to detach completly industrial era to Europe. Just imagine if the greatest advance in industrial era were Argentina's cattle farms

P.S. Some people are very ingenuous to think that the only reason other country's industries can compete with the US is due to slave labor. Show me how a 13 year slave in a bamboo backyard fatory can produce millions of tons of steel with highly competitive prices and we'll be rich. Are asiatic eletronic components designed by 13 year slaves too?

	05-04-2002 02:02									#50
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quote: Originally posted by spicytimothy buildings... Miami is associated w/ the beaches, Los Angeles with Hollywood, Santa Monica and Bev Hills etc, San Fran with Golden Bridge... spicytimothy

Yes Hollywood.

Its not a city.

Really. Hollywood Hills is a city. West Hollywood is a city.

But not Hollywood. Its part of Los Angeles.

LA has some 50 story building these days. Well I think there is at least one. Hope it stays in the next big quake.

	05-04-2002 03:37									#51
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Uberkrux - Did you read the thread? Your post about civilization doesn't make sense; thats not whats being discussed.

Ethel - That is a good point. Actually I knew that the British invented the armor (go UK!) but the M1 is distinctly American I think, so that is what I was getting at kind of. What you say about AT weapons is exactly what I was getting at in length in that post, about 'a desperate attempt to stave off obselesence due to all the missles flying around'.

For the whole city thing, there is one quote I remember. It is saying that the gridlock style is distinctly American, because American cities were mostly planned while Old World ones just developed "naturally". One early European visitor said the gridlock blocks were so monotonous, that after a while the eye begged for at least a crooked street.

However, I have to say discussing the cities seems less useful to me. That is just a graphics thing really, and I don't know how you would display non-American big cities except with sky scrapers anyway.

Discussing late game units and techs seemed more substantive and less cosmetic, but that is just how I see it.

	05-04-2002 04:18									#52
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quote: P.S. Some people are very ingenuous to think that the only reason other country's industries can compete with the US is due to slave labor. Show me how a 13 year slave in a bamboo backyard fatory can produce millions of tons of steel with highly competitive prices and we'll be rich. Are asiatic eletronic components designed by 13 year slaves too?

Steel is not made in backyard factories, its made in government subsidizeds or foreign owned factoys. They can produce stele cheaply because they don't have to follow those "pesky" labor and environmental controls that American steel factories have to follow. Therefore, they can pollute all they want and do whatever they want to their workers. I mean, what does their company care if they pollute their country, or if a couple dozen workers die? No, laborers do not design electronic components. Scientists and technicians do that. High tech production is different than textile or industrial production, and equires an extremely sophisticated manufacturing area. Third world countries aren't up to this. That is why Japan is the #1 electronic producing company in the world and the U.S. is #2. However, this argument is way off topic on a Civ 3 board. I'll gladly carry it on with someone in the off topic board.

	05-04-2002 04:31									#53
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Sorry to hijack my own thread, but...

quote: For the whole city thing, there is one quote I remember. It is saying that the gridlock style is distinctly American, because American cities were mostly planned while Old World ones just developed "naturally". One early European visitor said the gridlock blocks were so monotonous, that after a while the eye begged for at least a crooked street

Not true at all. I'm not sure who invented it, maybe the Greeks. I suspect, however, that it has been with cities from the beginning.

	05-04-2002 04:43									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Ethelred Could be he didn't mention it because chabram armour is a Brittish invention. The Abrahms wouldn't have been built without it as tanks were fast becoming expensive targets for cheap anti tank weapons.

Also, the British have a tank that looks similar to the Abrams.
The Chieftain, IIRC.

(Probably due to the Chobahm armor or something along that line.)

Stealth bomber should be replaced by the B-52.... oh wait, that's another American aircraft. (Though one that is more useful.)

	05-04-2002 05:01									#55
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quote: Not true at all. I'm not sure who invented it, maybe the Greeks. I suspect, however, that it has been with cities from the beginning.

Well I tried to find the quote I mentioned, so I could back it up and see what the surrounding paragraphs said, but I can't find it. I have a big collection of books about cities and I honestly can't remember which one it was in.

Anyway, what I posted was not a lie ... the gridlock was associated with American cities ... at least to my knowledge.

In any event I was trying to offer some support to awesomedude's side of the argument with that ... my mistake ...

Sinapus - I didn't know the Chieften was very similar to the Abrams, my bad. I thought the modern armor graphic was definitely an M1, and so I thought it lent support to Sandman's original post. Like I said Ethelred had a good point about that.

Man I do a bad job arguing for the too Americanized side! Ok I'm rejoining my country again ... Civ3 is not too Americanized!

	05-04-2002 05:46									#56
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This is obviously just an another European American-hate rant. I don't know why you guys across the sea hate us so much. Are we not liberal enough over here or what? Anyways, this game was bleeping developed in America and its main audience is Americans. If you have a problem with that, than just boycott America, we don't care.

	05-04-2002 05:59									#57
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quote: Also, the British have a tank that looks similar to the Abrams. The Chieftain, IIRC.

The Chieftain was the old battle tank. I think that you're thinking of the Challenger, the current model. And it does have 'Chobham' armour, apparently.

quote: Anyway, what I posted was not a lie ... the gridlock was associated with American cities ... at least to my knowledge.

Sorry, I didn't mean to accuse you of lying, it's a tiny issue anyway.

quote: Wall Street should be named for the first one, wasnt that the London Exchange?

Holland springs to mind, but then again... New York was founded by the Dutch.

	05-04-2002 06:11									#58
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quote: This is obviously just an another European American-hate rant. I don't know why you guys across the sea hate us so much. Are we not liberal enough over here or what? Anyways, this game was bleeping developed in America and its main audience is Americans. If you have a problem with that, than just boycott America, we don't care.

Read the damn thread before passing such idiotic judgements.

	05-04-2002 06:19									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman Sorry to hijack my own thread, but... Not true at all. I'm not sure who invented it, maybe the Greeks. I suspect, however, that it has been with cities from the beginning.

I think that there's at least a little truth too it. The Greeks may have planned their cities, aswell as the Europeans, but I'd say it's far more distinctive in the US, at least from my own experience. I'm not saying that European cities aren't made up of rectangular shapes, because they are to a certain extent, but they come in different sizes, compared to how "a block" is almost an exact measurement over here .

I live in SanFran, and I have yet to see a curved street downtown. Not saying that there aren't any though... in my mind there's not only a difference between city layouts (comparing America to Europe), but the difference is pretty huge.

	05-04-2002 06:28									#60
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quote: I live in SanFran, and I have yet to see a curved street downtown.

Where is Lombard St. then? Isn't it downtown or near it?

The Japanese tourists love that place. I only see the pictures they take so I don't know exactly where it is. I haven't been to SF since I was a kid.

For those of you that don't know Lomard St. is the curviest street on Earth. It gets used in movies for jokes.

Of course it USED to be a straight street.