05-04-2002 06:48									#61
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Ethelred Where is Lombard St. then? Isn't it downtown or near it? The Japanese tourists love that place. I only see the pictures they take so I don't know exactly where it is. I haven't been to SF since I was a kid. For those of you that don't know Lomard St. is the curviest street on Earth. It gets used in movies for jokes. Of course it USED to be a straight street.

It is downtown and now there is a COP station there to control traffic. Years ago you could drive down any time now forget it.

	05-04-2002 06:57									#62
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I retract my earlier post. I found a map of San Francisco. Gah... too gridlocked.

However, I stand by my claim that a strong grid layout was not a completely American invention. Here's a link to a map of Pompeii:

http://www.pompeii.co.uk/cd/map.htm

	05-04-2002 08:08									#63
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Ethelred Where is Lombard St. then? Isn't it downtown or near it? The Japanese tourists love that place. I only see the pictures they take so I don't know exactly where it is. I haven't been to SF since I was a kid. For those of you that don't know Lomard St. is the curviest street on Earth. It gets used in movies for jokes. Of course it USED to be a straight street.

Good point. You've got me there... I totally forgot about Lombard... . I'm sure there are plenty of other examples aswell. I see Lombard more as a tourist attraction than anything else though... I very seldomly pass by there.

Blockier than the "avenues" around Golden Gate park you don't get though and the very downtown area is the same way. I'm not saying that I despise US cities... they're just different, but still have their own charm. Walking up a hill to see the downtown area with its skyscrapers gradually becoming visible is a great view.

	05-04-2002 08:53									#64
	Re: Re: don't understand Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Ethelred Yes Hollywood. Its not a city. Really. Hollywood Hills is a city. West Hollywood is a city. But not Hollywood. Its part of Los Angeles. LA has some 50 story building these days. Well I think there is at least one. Hope it stays in the next big quake.

Well duh! I live in Pasadena, u think I don't know? that's exactly what I'm saying... ppl associate cities with diff. things and skyskrapers is not always what the association is. I hv never a tourist arriving in L.A. says: let's go to WEST hollywood... or the Hollywood neighborhood of Los Angeles... u know what I mean?


stop picking words people......

spicytimothy

	05-04-2002 10:16									#65
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Trevman This is obviously just an another European American-hate rant. I don't know why you guys across the sea hate us so much. Are we not liberal enough over here or what? Anyways, this game was bleeping developed in America and its main audience is Americans. If you have a problem with that, than just boycott America, we don't care.

1. There's nothing wrong in critique. Be it you or other people.
2. Main audience America? Infogrames is a French company, and it has bothered to translate it in many languages. Blockbusters such as Civ3 can sell a lot more in other languages version than just in English.
Besides, we must also consider the utter stupidity of your point. A "main audience" of a product can never determine its "thrutfulness" or quality. Ultimately, objectivity must decide. (Nazi propaganda was true, because the German agreed. Sure, this is an extreme example and US is not nazi, but this basically demonstrates how imbecile was what you said).

BTW, there is a mistake in your signature.

	05-04-2002 17:38									#66
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Trevman This is obviously just an another European American-hate rant. I don't know why you guys across the sea hate us so much. Are we not liberal enough over here or what?

Boy, boy, boy ...

Are you being oversensitive or immature about this one?

In his first threads Zannhart sounded like you, but I guess he's already figured out that Awesomedude :edit:- I meant Sandman -wasn't 'bashing America' at all.

If you had read everything you would have figured that out yourself. Right now you're just being !

Anyway, who's bashing who?

quote: Originally posted by Trevman This is obviously just an another European American-hate rant. I don't know why you guys across the sea hate us so much. Are we not liberal enough over here or what?

In my country there's a saying: 'the higher the trees the more wind they catch', meaning: anyone in a leading position (be it pop stars, politicians, nations, ...) will have to deal with different sorts of criticism.
If you can't (under)stand that and if you're unable to make the distinction between a non offensive post (Awesomedude's) and a real offensive one (check out elsewhere on previous threads) you still have to learn a lot.

Criticism is NOT equal to hatry !!!!

I myself, as many important European but also other world leaders find many reasons to criticize some of America's doubtful international politics. Bush isn't exactly what we refer to as a 'capable/intelligent' leader. Nevertheless, we'll also step in the ring to defend Americans if they're threated injust.

Please Trevman,
try to exagerate less the next time you feel a sudden attack of pattriotism. If you want to discuss politics (and if you're actually able of it) there are other ways.

Just don't generalize like you did. Just isn't friendly/civilized/reasonable at all.

Awesomedude/Sandman's done no harm at all.

Spicytimothy's also stated this before and all reasonable readers will have to agree, I suppose.

Don't consider this to be another 'America bashing' post, as it isn't!

I'm just bashing you !

Fair?
AJ

PS: To be 100% clear about my last remark: it's just a little joke.

Get it?

	05-04-2002 18:34									#67
	Inflate your Upload Space

Perhaps the game is not so much too American as too western. There is basically one way a civ can look at the end of the modern era and that is western. Given the way civilization has developed, both on the planet and as a game, that is not too surprising.
However we are currently playing civ3 and thinking about civ4, so perhaps this should also be addressed:

How can the modern era be made culturally diverse?
And
Is this something the programmers should be concentrating on?

Robert

	05-04-2002 18:52									#68
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Kailhun,

it's already discussed before, but in civ2 'fundamentalism' was included and it actually diversified modern age (even introducing a UU --> the fundamentalist IIRC, could be a CTP-feature though).

So, for starters, I recommend more types of governments to better represent real life's modern age. (I leave the suggestions for the pro's ) Some special 'government characteristic features' may be included as well.

Kind of silly they left fundamentalism out of Civ3. Too powerful they've concluded. So why didn't they make it less powerful than (or then )?

Diminishing choices of gov. seems quite illogical and a step back to me.

AJ

	05-04-2002 18:54									#69
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I guess that makes it a westernization vs modernization issue. What would it mean to be modern, but not western? Can you be modern without being western?

In this topic, people usually point to Japan as the only modern but not western (or only superficially westernized) country.

I'm not sure how alternate paths to modernity could be handled in Civ. Everything I can think of gets too science fictiony ... it also leads to treating the different civs as more different from each other than Civ has before (though Civ3 has done this with traits and population points ethnicity).

The only thing I can think of is graphics, which is just cosmetic. Only other thing I can think of is Unique Improvements, Unique Governments, Unique Techs or even Unique Tech Trees ... making each civ very unique (like say Starcraft races as opposed to AOE races).

	05-04-2002 19:04									#70
	Inflate your Upload Space

Nato,

Isn't China a 'modern' nation? And South Korea and many other so called Asean Tigres?

Technologically: yes.
Culturally: yes.
Politically: yes.
Scientific: yes.
Militaristic: yes.

So yes of course, you can be modern without being western! (some Apolyton-readers from other than Western nations won't like what you've suggested Nato --> or maybe we misunderstood you)

AJ

	05-04-2002 19:24									#71
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Listen guys (or that other thing, what's it called?), I'm new here & to the game also, but this theme was quite intrguing.

O.K. we all, probably, agree that Americans rule many thing in this sad, sad world of ours, and that that gives them right to be overconfident and even cocky. I, myself as a citizen of Europe, and as an admirerer of it's culture and astonishing history don't like that too much, but it bothers me not, 'couse they'r so far away, and it was cool, as I remember, till about 10 years ago.

What happened? The cold war was defenetly over, Berlin wall was brought down, USSR was broken apart, communism took that final hit that made it completly unpopular. Even Yugoslavia broke apart, and afther the war my country achieved freedom, afther allmost 1000 years.

So what does this got to do with the game? USA achieved total victory in allmost every field, and we all know that history is written by victors, and that is the case here.

Here is an exaple: Twin towers in N.Y., defenetly a tragedy, and guys responsible should be brought to justice, but look at it from this angle: cosidering only human casualties, in N.Y. about 5000 people were killed, but in Hiroshima & Nagasaky over 200,000 people were killed, and it was not considered to be tragedy, but victory. Not to mention radiation...

	05-04-2002 19:45									#72
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Interesting post Drug zBla,

(I suppose you didn't use any whilst writing this ?!)

However, it's best not to start all these things over again.

There was a rather recent (started one or two monts ago?) and very large thread started by Player1 that got 'hijacked' by a similar discussion/debate/flaming about world powers and the nuclear bomb.

I guess it's best to not start all this over again here .

The interested people could look up the thread I've just mentioned and continue over there (I'm sorry Player1 ).

edit: can't find it back, maybe not started by Player1?

Agree with most things you mentioned and nice to hear from you.

To All United Peoples Of Our Common World.

Amen .

AJ

Last edited by AJ Corp. The FAIR on 05-04-2002 at 19:56

	05-04-2002 20:02									#73
	Support Apolyton

I had no idea about that thread, and i wouldn't like to start a fierce discussion about ww2 and stuff, but it was just a thought.

But i don't agree that an eastern "way" coudn't be modern, just becouse it isn't. Or it isn't from our viewpoint. But what would have happaned if in 15th century Japan or China colonized American continent?

Western civilization is to rigid to open their views to unknown facts of the east, and to accept tham as equaly modern, but just different.

So, open your minds, you westerners and accept everyone as they are.

Last edited by Drug zBla on 05-04-2002 at 21:50

	05-04-2002 21:32									#74
	Remove this text

I think that if Civ III is to remain true to the idea that you can change 5000 years of history, and more or less everything to do with everything, then it should try to allow more flexibility, like allowing more governments, allowing cities in the industrial and modern ages to look different for different cultures, just like in all the other ages. Also, I don't like the idea that Free Market democracies are the last word in governments...and they offer loads of advantages, and no major disadvantages, especially since democracy is the most flawed government in real life. I found it very funny when in the manual it stated that "workers, inspired by the free enterprise system, work 50% harder than normal."

	05-04-2002 21:59									#75
	Support Apolyton

I agree.

Communism is, in theory, an ideal form of government, and the fact that corruption is, in civ3, on the lowest level in democracy , is just, well, you know, stupid. A true communist state would have level of corruption down to 0. Ofcourse that the ideal communism isn't possible, but, as a form of government, it shouldn't be so inferior do democracy in civ3.

And why is there no fundamentalism, or even militarism?

	05-04-2002 22:31									#76
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: And why is there no fundamentalism, or even militarism?

Why no Fascism? It is a major, influential government (just as influential in the 20th century as Communism) that is just left out. Would replace your militarism idea. There have been multiple threads asking for Fascism.

	05-04-2002 22:38									#77
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

O.K. Fascism.
But militarism is, just like fundamentalism, more general, and could be applied to any country, whit no strings attached, just like any other gvmnt. type in civ3.

P.S. where could I find those threads about fascism? Thanks

	05-04-2002 23:41									#78
	Put an end to popups!

It was mentioned in the thread the the US is the only country with stealth aircraft. That's true if you consider only certain aspects of stealth technology to be "Stealth". Many of the concepts of lowering radar profile have been around since the advent of the military aspects of radar. Stealth is more of a design philosophy than any one particular technology, and military aircraft made in other countries use some of the design concepts, even though they don't have all of the ones available to the US.

So in short, no other countries currently have anything EXACTLY like the US stealth aicraft... at least, as far as anyone can see ;o).

	05-04-2002 23:43									#79
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by steelehc If the game was solely americanized, there would be no pyrmiads, no hanging gardens, no temples, no oracle, no triremes, no caravels, no much of anything, in fact, until the industrial era. Steele

I would have liked to have seen Stonehenge used as a wonder.
But then I'm British.

	06-04-2002 00:25									#80
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: P.S. where could I find those threads about fascism? Thanks

I don't know if you can still find it, but we had a pretty detailed thread ( 6 or 7 pages) detailing Fascism for the use in an upcoming patch or something. The thread included many good ideas, and dealt with some of the issues that you bring up ( such as fundamentalism and militarism). Maybe the thread is archived oir something. If not, we can start a new Fascism thread.

	06-04-2002 01:08									#81
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by KateUK I would have liked to have seen Stonehenge used as a wonder. But then I'm British.

What would you use as its benefit (limited by current editor options)? I could see it giving a 25% in food since as i understand it, its a fabulous astronomical calendar.

	06-04-2002 01:11									#82
	Increase Your PM Length

I often hear governments referred to as Socialist, is that communism without the "big brother" mentality? If so, then we could have a socialsm form that incorporates the good of communism without any military effects.

	06-04-2002 04:43									#83
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by ALPHA WOLF 64 What would you use as its benefit (limited by current editor options)? I could see it giving a 25% in food since as i understand it, its a fabulous astronomical calendar.

Sorry, I haven't looked at the editor so I don't know what the current editor options are.
Yes one theory about Stonehenge is that it was an astronomical calendar, another is that it was a temple or similar. Looked at in those ways, take your pick, extra food, extra science, or the happiness/culture benefit that comes with religious wonders?

	06-04-2002 05:08									#84
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Nato, Isn't China a 'modern' nation? And South Korea and many other so called Asean Tigres? Technologically: yes. Culturally: yes. Politically: yes. Scientific: yes. Militaristic: yes. So yes of course, you can be modern without being western!

After posting that, I thought about it and knew someone would jump on it ... I do agree with what you said, I just didn't make my post lawyer-proof.

Basically what I typed was straight what I learned in my very tough Chinese history class, where modernization vs westernization was a major theme.

My enormously pro-Asian professor is the one who said the thing about Japan being the only modern but non-western nation.

I also had questions about some of the other nations, especially South Korea and the other NICs / Tigers. But he was very certain about Japan ... maybe it would be better to say it is the biggest example.

In another class I took, I read a book called "Clash of Civilizations". One of its topics was also modernization vs westernization. It basically argued that you could be modern without being western.

I think you can, because you can point to some things as western, and some as modern. However I think some traits of the west go very well with modernity, and so make it easier.

quote: So yes of course, you can be modern without being western! (some Apolyton-readers from other than Western nations won't like what you've suggested Nato --> or maybe we misunderstood you)

Oh please.

Nothing I typed was any different than what I learned in very politically correct history/political science classes. Whether you could be modern without being western was discussed as a serious question, not some jingoist thing.

If anything, my classes were slightly anti-western.

I think you have to choose one or the other: either don't be so sensitive yourself, or stop telling Americans to not be so sensitive when you very unambiguosly attack the US. (please take that lightly, not seriously/mean )

	06-04-2002 09:51									#85
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Sorry, I got a bit carried away in my last post.
I'm just so sick of European disgust for EVERYTHING American. I'm not saying that everyone in Europe is like this, but the overall sentiment I see is overall anti-American. I'm sick of Europeans mooning our president and blaming us for the cause of all human evils. Anyways, I really should vent this elsewhere . You kind of triggered this Sandman and I temporarily lost control.

	06-04-2002 09:56									#86
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I think that I'm going to avoid this thread.

Last edited by Trevman on 06-04-2002 at 10:08

	06-04-2002 10:11									#87
	Increase Your PM Length

Don't blame you Trevman.

I'm not an American, but the rampant Anti-Americanism that can be found in a lot of places kind of annoys me too.

Oh well, look at the bright side. They don't take shots at the people in second place.

	06-04-2002 10:15									#88
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by ALPHA WOLF 64 I often hear governments referred to as Socialist, is that communism without the "big brother" mentality? If so, then we could have a socialsm form that incorporates the good of communism without any military effects.

Good in communism??

	06-04-2002 12:18									#89
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Trevman Good in communism??

I thought you were going to avoid this thread... Apparently I can't hold you to that...

Yes, believe it or not, some people actually think that some of the ideas in the communist manifesto are potentially good. Not saying I'm one of them though, but I have a full understanding as to why they would think that way. The word communism has a very bad taste to hit in the west, mainly due to the connection with dictatorships as those in the Soviet Union and in China. However, these two communist powers have developed a communism that isn't really true as to how Marx defined it...

	06-04-2002 12:21									#90
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by awesomedude Yes, believe it or not, some people actually think that some of the ideas in the communist manifesto are potentially good. Not saying I'm one of them though, but I have a full understanding as to why they would think that way.

So you agree their brains are not yet fully developed?