04-04-2002 11:01									#1
	Is it hopeless? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

O.K. Here's my current game: Chieftain level, Tiny Map, It's me and 3 AI Civs. The year is 1754 A.D.. I have 9 Middle Age techs, and am now researching Chemistry. I'll get it in 13 turns. Is this game a lost cause? I picked a Tiny map, because I wanted to go for a Conquest victory. (I'm the Japanese). I once started a game with a Huge Map, and me and 2 AI Civs. I thought that this would give me tons of time to build up my empire. 5 turns into the game, I was attacked by the English. It's a

	04-04-2002 11:11									#2
	Put an end to popups!

There's no game attached.

Try Romans. Guaranteed victory if you have M&Ms. Promise. But you have to know how to use them. So maybe it's not guaranteed.

	05-04-2002 04:46									#3
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Probably the computers are as far behind technologically as you are. My current game started with 8 civs on a standard size map, but on small archipelagos. It's currently 2300 AD or so, and I've got about 4-8 techs left in the Modern era that I haven't researched, the 2 remaining computer players are only 1 tech ahead of me - There are only three civs left in the game, me (English), the Egyptians, and the Iroquois. This is on Warlord level.

So yeah, my tech rate is similar to yours. I expect it would be faster on higher difficulty levels, or if there were more land on the map, but I like the small archipelagos, keeps civs separate in the beginning.

	05-04-2002 05:05									#4
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I tried replying a couple hours ago but entropy got it.


Well you don't say a thing about what the AI is doing.

However you are close to Military Tradition. I am guessing You don't have enough money because its taking a bit long to get tech.

So beeline the rest of the way to Military Tradition (unless you are way behind on tech) then start building lots of cavarly. As long as the AI doesn't have riflemen you will be able to win most of your battles. Cavarly hit hard hit fast and they retreat some of the time instead of dying.

When riflemen start showing up it may be time find a peacefull solution to your problem. Till tanks. Infantry and artillery will work pretty well too on warlord. The tech advantage doesn't last long on high levels.

You could zip up a save and post it. Someone can take look. I just finished a game so I can look at it. Its a standard map so it won't eat the time that huge maps do. Be sure to zip it though. Saves compress real well.

OH don't play too many games on chieftan if you want to move to a harder level. You will learn things you will have unlearn later.

	05-04-2002 06:25									#5
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quote: Guaranteed victory if you have M&Ms

What thehell are M & Ms ?

	05-04-2002 06:32									#6
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quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus What thehell are M & Ms ?

I was hoping that someone with a name like Tacitus would tell me. Some Roman you are.

Maybe I should try playing Rome and I will have a revelation about it.

	05-04-2002 06:39									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

M&Ms?

Mars likes them. They melt in his mouth, not in his hands.

Good thing Ethelred was handy to lend more pertinent advice.

	05-04-2002 06:53									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Shadowlord It's currently 2300 AD or so, and I've got about 4-8 techs left in the Modern era that I haven't researched

How are you playing in 2300 AD, are you playing to win and not for score? The game stops scoring in 2050 AD, but you can continue to play without score.

	05-04-2002 07:06									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski How are you playing in 2300 AD, are you playing to win and not for score? The game stops scoring in 2050 AD, but you can continue to play without score.

Yeah, the egyptians got the win for having the highest score - I just kept playing for fun - yeah, I'm seeing if I'll win. So far it's going good, excepting the fact that everyone lacks 4-8 Modern Era techs still in 2300 AD :P

It's funny, I'm smashing them, and their score is still higher than mine. (The histogram does keep track of your score still, it just isn't recorded in the high-score table if your retire or "win" again. I'm assuming it'll take a total conquest to end the game now, as the game didn't end when I completed the first spaceship around 2150ish.)

	05-04-2002 07:29									#10
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quote: Mars likes them. They melt in his mouth, not in his hands.

OK now I may die in pieces as my curiosity is assuaged.

	05-04-2002 07:30									#11
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Actually. It will never end. Period.

You can start a game with *None* for every other civ. The map gets generated. You appear with your Settler and Worker. You build your capitol. The game tells you you've won, but you can still proceed with turns and do everthing just as in a normal, unfinished game. It's good for testing things like corruption, etc.

There probably is a point where the game will crash though, due to the year exceeding a limit. My guess is at around 26,000 AD

	05-04-2002 07:52									#12
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Nah, I bet it would wrap around, like in SimCity. I remember like 6 or 8 years ago, I filled up the entire map in SimCity with buildings in the year 1960 (Starting in 1900). That is, the year 1960 after the year had hit its maximum limit and looped back to 1900 a couple times

	05-04-2002 08:03									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I'd personally expect the maximum year (when the game crashes or the year loops back to what it was at the start of the game) to be 61535 AD, if the game starts at 4000 BC and 0 AD is a year. If the game skips 0 AD (I don't really remember if it does), then the max year would probably be 61536 AD.

That's assuming they used an unsigned 16 bit integer to store the year, and adjusted it backwards by -4000 years and used something like

displayYear = 4000+adjustedYear;

if year was < 0 to account for BC and AD being separate. Of course I know that code wouldn't actually work, you can't really subtract -4000 to adjust it, it wouldn't work right, of course. You'd have to have special code for it.

Or they could use something like a BigInteger class (Java has one built in. Yes, I know they didn't use Java.) and have no theoretical limit.

Then again... I'm changing my prediction.

If they used a signed integer, and just started it at -4000 and incremented it based on the years-per-turn at whatever point in the game it is (this would be easier than what I said before), then...

The year would be anything from 32768 BC to 32767 AD or 32767 BC to 32768 AD (I forget which would actually be the case).

So if you got to 32,767ish AD in game, it would loop back to 32 thousand BC, and start counting back up again, probably.

Anyone want to test this, rofl?

	05-04-2002 08:19									#14
	Put an end to popups!

I hate binary. I'm always losing a bit here or there...

	06-04-2002 01:14									#15
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Hehe.

	06-04-2002 02:00									#16
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

It has been a while, but it seems to me you are progressing pretty well for cheiftain level. IIRC, when I was playing chieftain, I wasn't able to get the ship off the ground until 2030 or so, and I wasn't getting out of the ancient age until around 1500AD or so. When the AI isn't effectively doing any research, you have to do it all on your own, and that can be pretty slow going.

Couple suggestions, though. The science advisor is a moron. You can pretty much be sure that whatever he suggests is *not* what you should be researching. If you agree with his recommendation, ask yourself why.

Secondly, take one of your new cities and automate one worker for that city. (Shift-I). Though he does some things in an order I would not, it can get you thinking along the lines of how to best improve your cities. Through Regent (and if you get a sweet start in Monarch) you can automate all your workers except for the first half-dozen and they will do a pretty good job, IMO.

Third, you don't have enough workers. (I'm guessing. Took me a long time to get to the point I appreciated how much of a difference those buggers make.) It is kind of nice to be able to improve a town to the nines within a few turns of its founding. And when you get railroads, you can't have too many workers.

	06-04-2002 02:16									#17
	Full PM-box? Change here!

YOu could play on a huge map with just yourself and one ai and I'll bet you 1mega dollar that the ai will be placed right on your doorstep and declare war on you.............................

Civ3 is not a peaceful game nor is it one that makes you relax and get into it like civ2 did.

	06-04-2002 03:38									#18
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I think we have been talking to ourselves.

	06-04-2002 04:06									#19
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Some of my best conversations happen with myself.

	06-04-2002 05:32									#20
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quote: I was hoping that someone with a name like Tacitus would tell me. Some Roman you are.

Take a closer look at my name. It's GeneralTacticus.

	06-04-2002 05:47									#21
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Thats OK. I can't spell either.

	06-04-2002 07:11									#22
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Oh, I'm here. (more or less). I've been trying to figure out how to ZIP my saved game, and post it here, so you could tell me what's wrong with my Empire. Every time I open my saved game file, there's nothing in it. Any suggestions?

	06-04-2002 07:51									#23
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

O.K. I hope that this does it. Here's the saved game 1754 A.D.

Attachment: james of the japanese, 1754 ad.zip
This has been downloaded 4 time(s).

	06-04-2002 08:04									#24
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I posted the saved game, but it disappeared. Let's try this again.

Attachment: james of the japanese, 1754 ad.zip
This has been downloaded 12 time(s).

	06-04-2002 08:26									#25
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

It was there. I just downloaded it from the first post.

	06-04-2002 09:40									#26
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OK. Here's a very short reply. Expect more detail from Ethelred.

Conquest Victory? You're doing well as a builder. It doesn't look like there has been any war yet. If you want war, you will need many, many more military units. Samurai would be ideal. Why do you have cities producing Wealth?

1. Cities. You have way to few. You ignored that patch of desert over there with the Incense. Now your enemies have it by colonies.

1b. The citiers you have are waaay spread out. It's nice to have every city in an ideal place, but it will cripple your overall development. BTW. You are wasting a lot of good terrain. That desert on either side of the river? It's Flood Plains. Some of the most productive food producing terrain in the game. Cities built to take advantage of it will grow like weeds.

2. Wonders. They are invaluable. You don't seem to want any. Get some. They're good.

3. Production. You have no mines (almost). Cities need mines to become big, strong and productive.

3b. Workers. They build your mines. You need a lot more than 4 Workers for 6 cities. Each city should have 1 or 2 workers toiling away towards their perfection.

I don't know how much you can be taught by words alone. Ethelred will no doubt give you many more than I have. I'll leave you with a save of mine from 1750. Take a look at it. Take a look at the city improvements. Sell some to see what effect they have when the city lacks them. Note the mines. I'm set up to max production. Soon I'll be converting mines to irrigation to max population, but not yet.

Good Luck. I'll answer any specific questions that you have.

BTW. No it's not hopeless. Learn fast and conquer. You have time yet. Samurai would be almost ideally suited to help you pull it off.

	06-04-2002 10:19									#27
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Well lets see how the game looks.

This may look kind of harsh but there is lot you were doing wrong. Its possible to launch the Space Ship by 1750 on Chieftan if you do things right. Maybe not easy but possible.

F8 screen

Your in last but not far behind. India has 154 and you have 119. Not a big deal for a conquest victory on a tiny map. You are never going to have big score though. Its hard to get a big score on Chieftan anyway.

Lowest power but again not much lower.

Big cultural advantage.

F11 demographics aren't so good. Fourth in everything that counts. Out of four. You really should be in lead in everything on Chieftan. Something is wrong in the way you are starting I would guess.

You should have ignored Education since you were intent on conquest. Take it from the AI or just run roughshod over them early with horsies and later your Samurai.

Have you had your Golden Age?

You should drop your research when you are down to the last turn. I was able to drop it two ten percent and still finish in one turn. You save a lot of money if you do that for every tech when its down to one turn.

Two cities are building Wealth. Thats a complete waste till economics. You get one coin for each EIGHT shields. With Economics it becomes one to four which still isn't good if your intent is to win by conquest. They should be working on something usefull.

You have only four workers for six cities. Those two cities should build a worker. You are have lots of unimpoved tiles. Thats what is destroying your game. YOU MUST IMPROVE all the tiles you are working. Don't bother with the tiles you aren't going to work soon.


YUCK you have the city GOVERNORS contolling them. And on a tiny map. TAKE CONTROL. The governors are idiots. When you city reaches twelve they will have you working tiles for food you don't need till you have hospitals. Don't produce extra food in cities that can't grow.

There was an entertainer in Tokyo for no reason.

I set Tokyo to build a worker. Wealth was silly when you need to improve the tiles with workers.

Edo is pegged for growth till you finish the aquaduct. The governor had four water tiles being worked for no shields. Concentrate on shield production when a city is pegged for growth. Get the improvement built.

You had two worker wasting time building a road to saltpeter that no city could work. It would be OK if it was your only saltpeter but you allready had it. Your not going to trade the extra to anyone at this point in the game.

Your cities are too far apart. You could easily have more cities in you present area.

Corruption effects cities by the number of cities you have but also by distance. If you have a lot of empty space you are just increasing corruption especially on a tiny map.

The corruption effect changes with map size so you run into closer in on tiny maps than on standard maps.

You in Monarchy so you won't make as much money as you could in a Republic but then with so few cities it won't make all that much difference. Its better than despot anyway.

Yeah I could win this game. Build some more workers and improve the tiles.

Maybe not your behind on tech. Germany has navigation. As well as three more cities. China has four more cities and navigation.
Even with nearly unimproved city I was able to change the time for the aquaduct from 15 to six. If the city was improved it would go much faster. India has three more cities and navigation.

You really should have the tech lead. It must be the way you didn't use your workers effectively.

Well since Ghandi is a tighwad lets see if I can trade with Mao for some tech.

Got Banking, music theory and navigation for 80.

Now the science is under the delusion that Japan is advanced. It will be pretty late in the game to be getting navigation when you learn how to do this better.

Kagoshima is building a harbor. You don't need on yet. It does need an aquaduct however and a marketplace. You need marketplaces to make money.


There is worker in Tokyo city doing nothing at all. If was fortified.

That means of four workers only one was doing something usefull.

You should mine most of your grasslands. That would be something usefull. Road EVERY tile that is being worked. Road your borders if they don't have anything else to do. The faster you can reach every spot the better your defense will be.

Way to much irrigation of grasslands. Irrigate plains, mine grasslands then readjust later when you get railroads.

Go into preferences and set it to show food and shieds on the map. That may help you see where you should have your workers. It helps me anyway.

Forget about conquest untill you reach tanks. By the time I got the Japanese to the point where they could build cavalry some of the AI allready had Nationlism. Cavalry can't do much against rifleman and the next good attack unit is tanks.

I am going to attach what I have done. I have one city working on a settler. You have at least two city sites available. They may not be great but you can push back the AI fast with culture being a religious civ.

I would plan on going after India unless someone else make YOU a target.

If you want to flog this game it can be won. May have to be with tanks. Don't forget to build a Forbidden Palace. Either SOON or as soon as you get a leader when you war with tanks. Without a lot of work you will run out of time. The game ends in 2050. What I have it at in 1818 has the Japanese in last still but only 8 points from second. India is in front by about 30 points. That can be easily erased when you get tanks.

The best thing you could do though is start another game. Concentrate on getting a good start. You wasted your workers and therefore you wasted your other efforts. You need at LEAST one worker per city and thats with an industrious civ. one and half to two with Japan. You can use workers you get through war but to do that you must actually go to war not just plan on it.

Good luck. Maybe I will mess around with this some more but I can't right at the moment.

You will have to rename the file to a .zip file. For some reason Apolyton files always show up named as atachment. I just highlight the name and copy it myself and then paste the name into the save box.

Attachment: james of the japanese, 1818 ad.zip
This has been downloaded 8 time(s).

	06-04-2002 10:21									#28
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I'll leave you with a save of mine from 1750. Take a look at it. Take a look at the city improvements. Sell some to see what effect they have when the city lacks them. Note the mines. I'm set up to max production. Soon I'll be converting mines to irrigation to max population, but not yet.

Good Luck. I'll answer any specific questions that you have.

BTW. No it's not hopeless. Learn fast and conquer. You have time yet. Samurai would be almost ideally suited to help you pull it off. [/QUOTE]


O.K. One question: Where's the saved game? ;o)

	06-04-2002 10:27									#29
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither 2. Wonders. They are invaluable. You don't seem to want any. Get some. They're good.

Generally yes but its late and he may have to go the conquest route. No sense wasting production on Wonders when he needs to build units. Still he isn't going to be able to start a war soon.

quote: BTW. No it's not hopeless. Learn fast and conquer. You have time yet. Samurai would be almost ideally suited to help you pull it off.

I am afraid its too late of Samurai. The AI was about to enter the industrial age and did so almost imediatly. There are just enough of them to advance by trading with each other at a decent clip.

I built a few cavalry but I think that too will not be able to get anywhere. I know someone had nationalism by the time I got Japan to the Industrial age. Don't know who but it was cheap so someone had it. Other than that I agree with you completely.

To me the biggest flaw was the poor handling of workers and low quantitiy of them. Most of the rest of the problems came from that.

	06-04-2002 10:33									#30
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As I said, Ethelred would give you more in depth feed back. His point about too late for Samurai should probably be heeded. He has examined the consequences, I did not.

Second attempt at the 1750 save. The server is acting weird. I know I set it up the first time.

Attachment: octavian of the romans, 1750 ad.zip
This has been downloaded 7 time(s).