10-04-2002 07:14									#31
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I like Zachriel's combined-arms scenario, or for that matter, the idea of anything that makes war in Civ3 something other than a single-unit affair, which is what it is with me 95% of the time. However, I fear that Firaxis believes this would turn Civ3 into a "war game," to which they are philosophically opposed.

With regard to the idea of making modern-day armies cheaper... or at least obtainable by something other than getting a GL... wouldn't their very plentifulness negate each other to the point that they would be the equivalent of tanks attacking infantry? In other words, you and I both have defenses, and we both have armies to smash through them - how is that diffedrent from the current cavalry/armor vs foot soldier dynamic?

	10-04-2002 07:39									#32
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Txurce, I was thinking about that very same point (concerning the having too many Armies around, making them standard rather than special). The solution would be to make the Armies less expensive than they are now, but still more expensive than any single unit. Remember also that Armies can still only be built in the city that has the Military Academy, and the maximum number of Armies one civ can have is still capped (one Army per four cities, is it?). All these points, taken together, would help retain the special status of Armies.


Dominae

	10-04-2002 10:00									#33
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I'm glad you guys like the idea.

I think that Dominae is right... the limit on Armies : Cities reduces the extremity of the effect (although, when we get to MP, watch out for Zachriel). Also, limiting the number of Armies to GL-created and from the Military Academy provides a reasonable limit. Keep them more or less expensive, too, but with a discount when you hit Modern Armor.

As to the balance of gameplay, remember how powerful Modern Armor is in terms of relative strength. A 4-unit MA Army has total attack points of 384, while a 4-unit Mech Infantry Army only has defense points of 288 (on the other hand, do YOU want to attack that Mech Infantry Army, with a single elite MA with only 96 available attack points?).

This kind of combat is what never really happened in real life, as the U and Russia never went at it (thank God). [Edit: US and Russia... and still thank God]

I am just now learning to play the late game... I've not bothered thus far, because I felt I would reach "momentum," and the rest would just be clicking. This concept would add some "major action" dynamics to the end-game.

R

	10-04-2002 22:56									#34
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I'm stunned by the number of units some of you build. No wonder you need stack movement! I probably average 3-4 units/city on normal maps. They're mostly top upgrade veteran defenders with groups of fast units at strategic locations. I barely build ships unless faced with an enemy that builds and uses them.

I guess multiplayer will be a shock for me, but I've always been pretty good at adapting

	13-04-2002 07:31									#35
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mines 201+, but I'm pretty late in the gaem (19th century)...it just depends on how far you are into a game; early on I only have around 20, later I can have as many as 300+

	13-04-2002 07:41									#36
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Current game:
Persia, Regent, 1940.

Military:
Workers * 12 (native, homegrown; I've got lots of captured ones)
Rifleman * 1 (no way to upgrade, stuck on an island)
Cavalry * 33 (good for side attacks)
Infantry * 38
Mech Infantry * 46
Catapult * 1
Artillery * 35
Cruise Missile * 5
Tactical Nuke * 12 (no ICBMs; too prone to destruction)
Ironclad * 12
Transport * 13
Carrier * 6 (fully loaded)
Destroyer * 12
Battleship * 16
Nuke Sub * 18
Bomber * 36
Jet Fighter * 16
Army * 2

	13-04-2002 08:27									#37
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this could explain some difficulty i have had. I have yet to win a game, though playing warlord. after reading about the units I reason that I have been building the most useless and expensive defensive ones and usually play to democracy. I have yet to build ICBM's or to have been attacked by them. The cooler units like helicopters and subs are useless. I also have been trying to use the smallest amount of military units feasible in a static defensive posture, with privateers nipping at foes. Play americans. Any suggestions?

	13-04-2002 09:06									#38
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OK. Same game.

It's 1850 now. I play slow, sue me.
Still 4 civs left
About 85 cities.

Settlers x 4
Workers x 60 Roman
Captured, about 120
Marines x 28
Knights x 3 (in Army)
Cavalry x 18 (1 Army of 3)
Inf x 0
Tank x 64
MechInf x 208
Artillery x 46
Cruise x 44
TacticalNuke x 11
ICBM x 27
Ironclad x 2
Transport x 6
Carrier x 8
Submarine x 6
Destroyer x 12
Battleship x 21
Nuclear Sub x 14
Bomber x 48
Jet Fighter x 32
Legion x 1

Believe it or not, I was stopped in my last war with Xerxes on his mini-continent by circumstances. The citizens of the Republic finally tired of war. I was a long way off from SDI. Finally, the AI was using it's large forces to effectively counter attack. I did take 3 cities. I went to peace with him. Ran up tech to Integrated Defence and built up. I am near renewing the offensive with Xerxes. I plan to drown him in a sea of MechInf with Tanks moving to gain specific objectives.

Unfortunately, the largest other AI civ is the Babs. 62 Tanks, 191 Mech, 51 Artty, 10 ICBMs, 18 BBs, 28 Bombers, 7 Fighters and 7 Jet Fighters. Very well developed. They can pump out SS components easily. Good thing they are mired in Communism and are behind in tech. They share a continent with the French (most backward, but have been my best freind all game).

The plan is going to be: Go after Xerxes and put him under. Settle his continent with 6 pop score factories. Keep an eye on Hammi. Ally with Joan and make selective use of nukes to get his capital before he can get his hands on integrated defense, and to decimate his forces so that Joan can keep him busy.

I don't know if anybody cares. Just thought I would point out that the 387 combat units I had the last time I reported were insuffucient to carry out Roman foreign policy. I have increased to about 600, but will need more before the dust settles on Xerses and Hammi. I intend to leave Joan with Paris. She has been loyal and deserves to be thrown a bone.

	13-04-2002 09:07									#39
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BTW. Stack movement rules.

I cannot tell you how happy I am with 1.17f.

	13-04-2002 12:14									#40
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Yup... Stuck movement is awsome

Actually i founded that using it on a Army it will unload your soldiers from your army..... I guess it's a bug but....

Anyway answering the question.
Here is my army.

Standard map
Romans - Regent

Settlers x 6
Workers x 34 (+ about 100 slaves)
Mech Inf x 102
Inf x 1
Tanks x 44
Cavalry x 2
Artillery x 10
Bombers x 12
Fighters x 4
Battleship x 2
Destroyers x 10
Transport x 1
Galleon x 6
Legion x 1 (Elite, the special guard of the Emperor )

It's fun to play regent and be half an age ahead your rivals and have many times their army and almost all the wonders

Saluti

	13-04-2002 13:46									#41
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Large. But when you strike first and strike best, size doesn't matter.

	13-04-2002 17:47									#42
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quote: Originally posted by troytheface this could explain some difficulty i have had. I have yet to win a game, though playing warlord. after reading about the units I reason that I have been building the most useless and expensive defensive ones and usually play to democracy. I have yet to build ICBM's or to have been attacked by them. The cooler units like helicopters and subs are useless. I also have been trying to use the smallest amount of military units feasible in a static defensive posture, with privateers nipping at foes. Play americans. Any suggestions?

You dont have to build a large army to win CIV3. I maintain a small defensive army with some counterattack abilities (must have at least roads to all cities for mobility). My production is usually pretty high so I can crank out what units I need when I see that the AI is moving units my way. I station lots of "lookouts" at strategic points along the borders. With railroads and inf I'm pretty much invulnerable.

Even if you're a builder (like me), it helps to be aggressive in the early game (especially at the higher levels). So you'll need the best attacking force you can put together to take the AI cities. If you're alongside any of the militarist civs build a larger army your gonna need to "weed-wack" the ***tards down at some point (better early than late). Obviously if you're a miliarist civ build a big army and use it, it does no good sitting around.

	13-04-2002 21:04									#43
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Troy, presumably you're playing a builder game using democracy to win the space race or a cultural victory. I don't know what defensive units you were building, but as Spencer pointed out, make sure you have a decent state-of-the-art counterattack force. The reason is that you can't count on the AI to throw in the towel against a tough target - you often have to bloody their nose. The easiest way to do this is to attack one of their cities, but if you chosse not to play this way, then the next best strategy is to make their bleeding untenable. When you find their stacks on open ground, throw enough mobile units at them to wipe them out. This is easy to do with a small force once you have railroads; before that time, you will probably want to have a few evenly spaced rapid-response teams within your borders. If you can hang on long enough doing this, the AI will often give you tech and/or gold in order to settle.

NYE, that's an awful lot of troops letting down your foreign policy. What size map are you playing?

	13-04-2002 21:20									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Txurce make sure you have a decent state-of-the-art counterattack force.

Bombard works quite well here also. Hit them and they usually run away. Then a few mounted units to chase the wounded from the battlefield. I've stopped quite a number of invasion forces with a few well-placed cannon. Because if requires so few units, the gpt is low, the production requirements are low, and there are few lost units requiring replacement. This allows you to play a builder strategy even when being attacked.

A well-designed fort city can serve the same purpose. There is often a specific invasion path for the enemy. By walling and fortifying a few good defenders in this path, and sacrificing the territory in front of the walls, the enemy will beat himself bloody against the fortification. Meanwhile, you are building in the rear of your empire.

	13-04-2002 22:46									#45
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Zachriel, how large was your military in the American game you posted on your website?

Specifically, how many Armies? Did you hit the limit?

	14-04-2002 00:33									#46
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India, about to enter the Industrial Age.

83 Cities

8 Settlers
86 Workers (1 Zulu)
21 Spearmen
4 Pikemen
3 Musketmen
6 Caravels

The 'modern' units we got from huts and from foreign cities joining our empire.

	14-04-2002 02:00									#47
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Okay, Ribannah, 'fess up. Are you playing with a Civ2-style tribute+espionage mod? Because that's exactly what your military looks like.

More seriously, how'd you do it?

	14-04-2002 02:03									#48
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Here's my army from my latest game as the Babylonians:

4 Spearmen (upgraded all the way to Mech. Infantry)
4 Workers
2 Battleships (when I finally got the resources to build them).

That's pretty much all you need...

Oh, did I mention I was trying my hand at the OCC?

I didn't win btw, but my loss had nothing to do with the size of my army!


Dominae

	14-04-2002 02:03									#49
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Zachriel, good point. The AI rarely leaves wounded troops on the field. Knock them into the yellow, and they usually retreat to heal. And cannon don't "pursue" out of their defensive emplacements.

	14-04-2002 02:59									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Zachriel, how large was your military in the American game you posted on your website? Specifically, how many Armies? Did you hit the limit?

9 armies maxed (mostly tanks)
29 tanks
58 infantry
14 battleships
3 f-15s

	14-04-2002 03:22									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Txurce Okay, Ribannah, 'fess up. Are you playing with a Civ2-style tribute+espionage mod? Because that's exactly what your military looks like. More seriously, how'd you do it?

LOL - no mods.
If you generate enough culture everyone will stay nice and peaceful.
And they are prolly afraid of our army of workers.

	15-04-2002 21:42									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Ribannah And they are prolly afraid of our army of workers.

I bet you have found a method to make them sing 'l'internationale'

	15-04-2002 22:05									#53
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Thanks Txurce and Zachriel, I played regent (standard map) and lost the space race, however I made it to sattelites and space, and made some nukes which is the farthest i have gotten yet. (I check "default" for the rules)
I lost two cities but wiped out my continent neighbors (persians and Germans) Calvary and cannon, -skipped knights and pikeman- went to musket (just a few) than rifleman to hold off knights. I will go a higher level and play for domination to see if i fare better. perhaps large map.

	16-04-2002 21:05									#54
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in my current game - huge map, 10 civs, pangea, regent, and for a change i'm playing the romans. i control about 1/3 of the map and have i'm guessing over 100+ cities (i wish there was a simple counter to tell me just how many cities i really have)...all civs still on the map (i'm a builder who believes in carrying a very large titanium mallet) and my forces total 949 units. i'm drawing this from memory though as i last looked at that window last night. good game going now though...not horribly slowed down yet.

oh one more thing, i know that at least 106 of those units are in fact workers. i think that i have about 400 or so infantry as well. i need them though as i always seem to be at war with the germans.

	21-04-2002 09:13									#55
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Im not very good at this game , but I managed to control half of the worlds armed forces with the English. I kind of go at it backwards , I begin off going for the culture points , resources , techs , and LOTS of money. I sell my resources and techs to other civs. I then save my money so when someone attacks me I pay off other civs to help me fight the war. After a few thousand years I will begin to make my military larger. Since most of the other civs are always at war its easy for me to build my military up. I forget the year , but I recently just got the ability to make mech infantry.

55 tanks
110 Mech infantrys
70 Cav units
120 workers
50 Marines
A hanful of transports , and I just started making Bombers.

	21-04-2002 18:31									#56
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120 workers!!

	21-04-2002 19:55									#57
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well i went back and checked out the forces and here they are, after fighting a rather long and protracted world war against the germans.

2 settlers
85 workers
545 Infantry
200 Cavalry
100 Artillery
20 roman legions
13 armies
12 transports
36 destroyers
20 Man-O-War

it's a modified game so the Man-O-War are available to all nations. i simply changed out the longbowman for the man o war. anyway, it's expensive to maintain this size of forces but i'm surrounded by my enemies so maintain it i must. besides, it's rather fun to go on the offensive on 4 different fronts.

	26-04-2002 20:38									#58
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This varies for me a ton from game to game. The most recent game I was playing, I had well over 200+ units. I've seen games with 1000+.

But, then again, a few games ago, I had a force of 14 units, mostly ancient age, to defend against an opponent in the industrial age. Had 18 units when the war ended, with me plus three cities (the AI is stupid).

Depends greatly on map size and year.

Arathorn

	28-04-2002 17:45									#59
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Builder speaking here. Generally, as much as much as I need to be sure I can defend my land. If alone on landmass, less units, if not, much Infantry placed along the border with neighbour.

My attacking force is so that I could fight in the field OK, and sometimes, if I got nothing to do, I mass it.

I have been in a Modern World War, there my military consisted of some 250 units, and the overall number of units involved was surely over 1000.

	28-04-2002 22:57									#60
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Generaly, I don't invest much into a military units. As a rule of thumb for me, it's three units for every city. Two defenders, and an attacker. I don't go on the offensive until industrial age however. At which point, I start a massive arms build up and start stupid wars.

I shine in modern warfare. With the lethal bombardment values I use, I like using a nice combind arms force that take out a couple of my annoying vassel states. A combination of Jets, Battleships, Mech Infanrty, Modern Armor and ICBMs really makes my wars fun.