08-04-2002 02:09									#61
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quote: Originally posted by reds4ever Bod, ready for the semi's?

Yeah, but you better not be going for the stale 0-0 draws both legs.

	08-04-2002 02:10									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Caesar the Great heres a pratical anti-rap arguement... Any rap that has meaning is generally about racism and the ghettos and social injustices. There is nothing wrong with that. Unfortunately it does create attitudes in the black communities that are problematic. First of all, nearly all if not all rap uses socially unacceptable language and hardly ever even resembles proper english. In general blacks who listen to this music are not upper class and live in poorer neighborhoods. At home they are not exposed to proper english, at school and everywhere the same is true. Thus the only manner in which they know how to speak is the kind all around them, and in particular in rap music. Yes, this is partly due to a failure by schools and parents but nonetheless music's influence cannot be denied here. Without knowledge of proper speech nor writing skills it becomes very hard for lower class blacks to advance in society, rather they become caught in a cycle from which they can never escape.

So you are assuming that all blacks listen to rap? I'm sure that isn't true. There are many rappers who are well versed in the english language, and rap without excessive cursing and slang.
Alot of the more 'afro-centric' emcees encourage black self sufficiency and self-determination, and encourage poor black youth to stay away from drugs. Rappers like KRS ONE,Talib Kweli, and Mos Def have put out some brilliant work, that has been ignored by the mainstream. You just have to dig beneath the surface to find the good stuff.

	08-04-2002 02:21									#63
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Ahh, Backpacker Rap. I like Backpacker Rap fans almost as much as I like Americans.

	08-04-2002 02:25									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Asher The answer is quite simple: The majority of famous rappers are complete *******s. Many of them are even borderline racists. Much of the more famous songs are nothing but profanity and about violence and "gangsta warfare". There is some good rap out there, but it's overshadowed by mountains of crap. Then there's the "elite" factor of it. If you're white and you listen to rap everyone automatically calls you a "whigger" and you earn the reputation of a poser. I wouldn't mind rap if there was more of it that was good, rather than preying off the violent youth who like outlets for their anger and dream they're "ganstas".

Hip Hop is a culture. Emceeing[rap] is just a part of this culture. Hip Hop is a multi-racial culture. Its universal. There is hip hop in Japan, Europe, Africa, Latin America,everywhere. Whites can listen to rap, and whites can be a part of hip hop. Whoever calls you a wigger because you like rap is just stupid. Real hip hop has been overshadowed by commercial gangsta pop. Record companies don't care if they destroy an art form, as long as they sell records. If I asked the average person what hip hop culture means to them, they would probably say its just sex, drugs, and violence. This is not true. I don't feel like explaining everything about hip hop right now, but here is a good place to learn about hip hop.http://madtheory.tripod.com/index.html

	08-04-2002 02:27									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Snapcase Ahh, Backpacker Rap. I like Backpacker Rap fans almost as much as I like Americans.

Yes, I'm proud of being a rap purist.

	08-04-2002 02:30									#66
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quote: Originally posted by sparkplug Hip Hop is a culture. Emceeing[rap] is just a part of this culture. Hip Hop is a multi-racial culture. Its universal. There is hip hop in Japan, Europe, Africa, Latin America,everywhere. Whites can listen to rap, and whites can be a part of hip hop. Whoever calls you a wigger because you like rap is just stupid. Real hip hop has been overshadowed by commercial gangsta pop. Record companies don't care if they destroy an art form, as long as they sell records. If I asked the average person what hip hop culture means to them, they would probably say its just sex, drugs, and violence. This is not true. I don't feel like explaining everything about hip hop right now, but here is a good place to learn about hip hop.http://madtheory.tripod.com/index.html

I don't have a problem with any form of hip hop except the majority of rap. The majority of rap is absolute crap (watch this white boy bust out those rhymes, yo).

Snapcase sits here talking about how it's so beautiful and whatever, but as soon as a Rock group implements some rap (Linken Park comes to mind), he's one of the first people to jump on them and scream at them for making crap music.

	08-04-2002 02:34									#67
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You forgot the atrocity known as 'Limp Bizkit'!!

	08-04-2002 02:34									#68
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quote: Originally posted by sparkplug You forgot the atrocity known as 'Limp Bizkit'!!

That's not even rap. I don't know what that is...it's horrible. That's all I know.

	08-04-2002 02:50									#69
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Yes, rap is music, but some, actually, make that most of it, totally sucks.

For example, Dr. Dre's Chronic 2001 CD. 22 tracks. 2 great songs, 4 very good ones, 3 skits, and 13 bad songs. And thats the only rap CD I have. :

Example of a bad song:
"All these n----- and all these whoes, aint somebody here gon' f---?"
I mean, seriously.

But there really are some great rap songs.
Good ones from the past year, listed going backwards chronologically:

What's Luv (Fat Joe feat. Ashanti)
The Whole World (Outkast)
Rollout (Ludacris)
Welcome to Atlanta (Ludacris)
Can't Deny It (Fabolous)
#1 (Nelly)
Raise Up (Petey Pablo)
Where the Party At (Jagged Edge feat. Nelly)
Let Me Blow Ya Mind (Eve feat. Gwen Stefani)

Theres about one good rap song per month, I'd say.

Then there's a lot of great collaberations where an R&B or other non-rap artist does a song with a rapper, like City High and Eve in Caramel.

So on the whole, I'd say rap doesn't always suck. On the question of whether it is music, I'd say it is. But I believe your point is to criticize rap, not really contemplate on whether it's music.

BTW, I agree with snapcase completely.

	08-04-2002 02:51									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Asher That's not even rap. I don't know what that is...it's horrible. That's all I know.

	08-04-2002 02:55									#71
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Yes, rap with a silent 'c'

	08-04-2002 03:34									#72
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the entire hip hop culture is just a whole shitload of commercialized bullshit... what was "art" has been torn apart and sold for 20 bucks to a bunch of poser kids who don't know anything better... there is some good rap, but the overwhelming majority of what is ever heard is absolute ****, simply made to sell records... but its not only that record companies have butchered music to make money (they've been doing that for years) its that atrocities like eminem who talk about raping women, killing gays etc are being mass marketed - this unquestionably has a strongly negative impact on kids, especially those 12/13 year old kids...

	08-04-2002 03:51									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Caesar the Great the entire hip hop culture is just a whole shitload of commercialized bullshit... what was "art" has been torn apart and sold for 20 bucks to a bunch of poser kids who don't know anything better... there is some good rap, but the overwhelming majority of what is ever heard is absolute ****, simply made to sell records... but its not only that record companies have butchered music to make money (they've been doing that for years) its that atrocities like eminem who talk about raping women, killing gays etc are being mass marketed - this unquestionably has a strongly negative impact on kids, especially those 12/13 year old kids...

Exactly.

	08-04-2002 13:32									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Caesar the Great the entire hip hop culture is just a whole shitload of commercialized bullshit... what was "art" has been torn apart and sold for 20 bucks to a bunch of poser kids who don't know anything better... there is some good rap, but the overwhelming majority of what is ever heard is absolute ****, simply made to sell records... but its not only that record companies have butchered music to make money (they've been doing that for years) its that atrocities like eminem who talk about raping women, killing gays etc are being mass marketed - this unquestionably has a strongly negative impact on kids, especially those 12/13 year old kids...

Hey but it's rebellious therefore it's amazing music!!!!!

	08-04-2002 15:19									#75
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Someone seems to be stuck in a mid-seventies "all commercial music is by necessity crap" mentality, here. Not so. In fact, some of the greatest music ever has been thoroughly commercial, from Phil Spector via Motown and Bubblegum to Disco. Sure, the eighties saw the collapse of good, cutting-edge production and originality in Pop music (not that much good happened during the seventies either, mind), but Hip-Hop and Urban R&B is the renaissance of great pop production as far as I'm concerned. Purity, minimalism, exoticism, original hooks- brilliant.

Oh, and boddy- I never claimed all rebellious music is good. I claimed that all good music drives the establisment wild.

	08-04-2002 16:22									#76
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Rap as opposed to Hip Hop is so minimal that it bores me to death, like some blues and reggae does. There is some that is musical enough to engage my interest, but very little. I prefer much more complicated music like Jazz, which has the capability of being listened to many times without getting dull. I get bored with Rap before the first time I hear it because I already know the excruciatingly simple music which is being rapped over. Hip Hop in part is an attempt to broaden the melodies and methods of rap, but IMO it came too late to to save the genre for me. I get a rash whenever those rap style vocals start very similar to the one I get when I hear anything by the Grateful Dead.

	08-04-2002 16:56									#77
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I used to like rap, but then I grew up.

IMO

I still can listen to old stuff like Public Enemy, some TuPac, and maybe Bone Thugs. But for the most part, its all "bling bling, hoes and *****es, rollin on dubs".

All mainstream music sucks. Pop music is the worst. Michael Jackson, Britney Spears, boy bands, it all sucks. The only thing I can listen to is some rock and progressive trance. Rock is turning into crap, too. Just because Pearl Jam had success, the industry cranked out 50 different bands that sound just like them. Creed being the biggest poseiur of them all.

American culture is bankrupt.

	08-04-2002 19:42									#78
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How many of you are actually musicians?
How many of you have ever made rap music?
How many of you are as white as Asher?

-FMK.

	09-04-2002 01:32									#79
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I've played for half of my life, why?
Never rapped, I have wrote poetry, I think that's close enough though.
Yes, I am extremely white.

I have played jazz, orchestral, pep band, and marching band stuff. I have written one piece for Trombone and a few for piano. Not very good ones, but I've never claimed to be a composer.

	09-04-2002 02:28									#80
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oops, ignore this post.

Last edited by sparkplug on 09-04-2002 at 02:35

	09-04-2002 02:34									#81
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Today we have drivel like Puff Daddy and Britney Agiuilara infesting the airwaves. If you like that kind of stuff, fine. I used to be into gangsta rap and I used to love songs about the 'bling bling'. But now I'm sick of it. After hearing rappers endlessly talk about how they have sex with thousands of women, drive expensive cars, and beat down 'playa haters', I got tired of it. I began to look elsewhere for music. The music on the radio and MTV is crap, and I can't find any of the 'good' rap in stores. Thank God for the internet is all I can say. Sorry about the rant, but I'm rather angry today and I can't help it.

	09-04-2002 02:38									#82
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I forgot about Public Enemy, I'll have to find my old copy of Fear of a Black Planet . That was some kick ass music.

	09-04-2002 02:50									#83
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX rap music isn't music. i dont care if i'm overgeneralizing but any music that says "i shot a cop" isn't music. it's riot chanting.

Does that make Eric Clapton a rap artist?
"I shot the sheriff?"

	09-04-2002 02:58									#84
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How many of you are actually musicians?

Never played no instruments but I can sing..
.
How many of you have ever made rap music?

I have...

How many of you are as white as Asher?

People usually think I'm hispanic or mixed.


I agree with Sparkplug but this backpacker hip hop is just as bad as the bling. Mos Def and Common are nice but when you get into **** like Aesop Rock and Dilated Peoples... that is just pretentious suburban **** that is about rapping about nothingness... Abstract rap is a bastardization of what is a concise and clear artform from those that usually don't have a voice. I like the intelligent gangster rappers from 2pac to Nas, Scarface to Bone Thugs, etc. Social rap.

although I should note that I think that the commercial rap isn't all that bad. basically, it's just fun rap. Rap as being social or political is pretty new. For most of the eighties until Public Enemy, rap (old school) was just a laid-back fun thing where emcees basically just boasted about their rapping ability and people had a good time. It was Public Enemy and 2pac that showed rap's capabality of being intelligent and influential. But this commercial rap is just an extension of old school. It's just a fun thing for the clubs. Don't think anything of it. People don't take it seriously.


thanks

	09-04-2002 03:04									#85
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Rap is only music if its mixed with metal.

	09-04-2002 04:09									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Field Marshal Klesh How many of you are actually musicians?

I play guitar and used to play keyboard/piano when I was a weeee lad.

quote: How many of you have ever made rap music?

This has nothing to do with it.
Why would we make something we generally hate?
It's like saying you can't say jumping off cliffs is okay unless you've done it yourself. When you see other people doing it, you know it's a bad idea.

quote: How many of you are as white as Asher?

This is what I was talking about earlier. I don't like rap because it's full of racial slang, life, and connotations.

The fact that you come out and say something like that shows you why I won't like rap for some time. I don't like rap because I'm "very white", har har, I got it.

	09-04-2002 06:14									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Blackwidow24 Well, it is music, or at least can be classified as music because of the use of beats and singing HOWEVER, it can be ridiculous and hard to listen to. I like Tupac, he was a poet, alot of his songs were about his own life, but alot of rap artist just use it as a means to get out there anger and hostility towards forces more powerful than themselves...i.e. the police. They also seem to have a HUGE disresepect for women...labeling them as Beotches and hoes...its gotten really bad lately

You just gave me an idea, BW

Rap is to music what prose is to poetry

	09-04-2002 06:24									#88
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I don't see whats wrong with Dilated Peoples. I have their new album and it sounds good to me. Dilated is in no way 'abstract hip hop''. Their new album is basically just a good collection of battle raps,freestyles,old skool beats,and some political tracks. And Aeosop Rock's lyrics may sound like nonsense, but maybe you should listen a little harder. And I have no problem with party rap. One of my favorite groups is the Alkaholiks, and their music can only be described as drunken party rap. Its stupid **** like the Cash Money Millionaires that piss me off. But who cares what I think, I'm just a stupid backpacker.

	09-04-2002 07:43									#89
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quote: Originally posted by sparkplug Well?

NO

	09-04-2002 09:37									#90
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quote: Originally posted by joseph1944 NO

Care to elaborate? I guess I should have been more specific but I was busy when I started this thread,so let me restate my question: Is rap music? If not, is it poetry? What about the beats? Do the beats that accompany rap make it real music? What about rap that is backed by live instruments? Is it music then? That is what I should have asked. Sorry about that, but I didn't have time to write a longer question.