07-04-2002 08:11									#1
	Back Stabbing AI Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Has anybody noticed that the AI sometimes seems to repay your kindness by declaring war on you? I am playing a game where Greece (me), China, and India are on the same continent. China loves me, and so did India -- India was gracious towards me for atleast a dozen turns. To make sure I stayed in their good favor, I gave India 2 luxuries and and resource they didn't have. For no apparent reason, India did a sneak attack on me an declared war the NEXT TURN.

China & I signed an alliance and crushed that pruned-faced bastard Ghandi, so no harm done. Has anybody had similar experiences, and (more importantly) does anybody know *WHY* the AI does this? This seems to happen every game I play, so maybe it's a flaw in my strategy. But it seems to happen most often when the country is supposedly "gracious" towards me. Is there such a thing as being too nice to the AI?

-- twistedx

	07-04-2002 09:19									#2
	Back Stabbing Remove this text

The AI probably does it (you could rationalize) for the same reasons player do it: Imperial Expansion (or dreams thereof)!

Just because it's all cold software (thank you Firaxis!), doesn't mean they should always be rational -- WE are not always rational! Time for a decision 'roll' comes up; the randomizer draw is a little extreme, presto: a meglomaniac has taken over the government (isn't it strange how the face never changes in this game).

Among other things, it has been 'discovered' that if a civ has a huge army lying about after knocking out another civ, it may want to try knocking on someone else's door. Must be getting a little taste for blood.

--
Meanwhile, the only "being too nice to the AI" that I am aware of is having too small of an army.

JB

	07-04-2002 09:26									#3
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I have had the same experiences with Ghandi (the indians are the only ones who have done this to me, so far) I just make sure to get rid of his balemic , nose-picking, knuckle-draggin, Rasinette lookin, and overall DIRTY, LOW DOWN, NO GOOD ROTTEN @ss As SOON AS POSSIBLE!!

As you can probably tell, I have had many a run-in with Ghandi's tactics. He just so happens to be ONCE AGAIN the thorn in my side in my latest attempt in Emperor difficulty; I won't bother going into detail but lets just say this: never, and I Mean NEVER grant Ghandi a Mutual Protection Pact unless you are playing chieftan or somthing like that.

The moment I game him MPP (witch cost him 1 tech and some luxuries, I thought I was getting a deal) he went to war with the French who were adjacent to me... He is on my left, French on my right.... I am stuck in the middle with only a few knights and swordsmen to try and fend off the french onslaught of 40+ Knights AND LOADS of friggin archers !0

I think its a programmer joke, ya know trying to make Ghandi as far from the real person as possible (good job, hats off guys).

Ugh, must ... kill. ... rasinette-man.... !

	07-04-2002 09:31									#4
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Wrong. We've gone over this before.

REAL leaders are not just simple-minded bean counters who occasionally engage in shameless backstabbing.

Only on the RAREST instances in History have leaders gone from Polite or Gracious (yes, I've seen it) to back-stabbing invaders.


Hitler and Hirohito/Tojo had ICY relations with the Soviets and Americans in 1941 when they sneak attacked.

When the Japs sneak attacked the Russians in 1904 and a decade before that the Chinese they had ICY relations.

Off hand, I can't think of any instances in History where a major power sneak attacked a neighbor he had good relations with.

	07-04-2002 10:04									#5
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Imagine if us humans & the AI were restricted from doing any backstabbing simply because the relations were good... boy that would suck.

	07-04-2002 10:16									#6
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"I told ya! But, oh no ya wouldn't listen would ya, just a harmless little bunny rabbit.."

-Tim; Monty Python; Quest for the Holy Greil

	07-04-2002 10:17									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Coracle Wrong. We've gone over this before. REAL leaders are not just simple-minded bean counters who occasionally engage in shameless backstabbing. Only on the RAREST instances in History have leaders gone from Polite or Gracious (yes, I've seen it) to back-stabbing invaders. Hitler and Hirohito/Tojo had ICY relations with the Soviets and Americans in 1941 when they sneak attacked. When the Japs sneak attacked the Russians in 1904 and a decade before that the Chinese they had ICY relations. Off hand, I can't think of any instances in History where a major power sneak attacked a neighbor he had good relations with.

who said that the AI's face being Gracious actually aligned with his/her intentions? sure it's probably all bullsh1t, and the AI is probably programmed to hit you when you least expect it, but it's a nice way to think about it

	07-04-2002 12:06									#8
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When i see a 'sneak' attack coming, i know nothing i do will change it. Therefore i make trade deals and give a ROP to the civ even if i have to pay for it (it's gonna go away in a turn or two anyway).

I am assuming they take the same diplomatic hit i do when they break deals and am out to ruin thier reputation.

	07-04-2002 22:06									#9
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Wouldn't you try to get as many MMPs as you could?

Try and at least force the civ sneakin' you to get raped by his AI bretheren after the fact.

	07-04-2002 23:14									#10
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quote: Originally posted by ~Vodka~ Wouldn't you try to get as many MMPs as you could? Try and at least force the civ sneakin' you to get raped by his AI bretheren after the fact.

That's the whole point of the alliances system - everyone allies with other nations, so if one nation attacks another, they get squished by the defenders' allies.

Of course, that's the whole reason World War I started. In a simplified nutshell, there were two big groups of allied nations in Europe, the alliances were mostly secret, and one nation from one alliance attacked a nation from the other alliance, and the rest of Europe got pulled into the war by their alliances with the two minor warring nations....

Who wants to build a WWI Civ III scenario?

	08-04-2002 00:08									#11
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Thats my point! If you're goin down, take all the dirty AIs with you!

	08-04-2002 02:31									#12
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quote: Originally posted by ~Vodka~ Wouldn't you try to get as many MMPs as you could? Try and at least force the civ sneakin' you to get raped by his AI bretheren after the fact.

It doesn't do any good in the early game.

	08-04-2002 02:36									#13
	Increase the size of your Attachments

MPP's are evil. wacky AI's that see themselves aligned with the human seem to go off on wild attacks that they assume you will fight for them.

	08-04-2002 03:19									#14
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX MPP's are evil. wacky AI's that see themselves aligned with the human seem to go off on wild attacks that they assume you will fight for them.

Agreed. But they also enhance your relations with the countries you have the MPPs with. My last game I did a stupid and had a UN vote. Chinese had longterm MPPs with many of the other civs: they got the vote, and I had to load up the AutoSave.

Also, wacky human players that see themselves aligned with the AI's seem to go off on wild attacks that they assume the AI will fight for them.

	08-04-2002 03:24									#15
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MPPs are evil. This is what happened to me yesterday:

At war for maybe 40-50 turns with about 5 civs (including myself) against 3 nations (the other 10 had been killed off, either during this war or in the centuries preceeding.) Anyway, I traveled via rail all the way across the pangea to destroy the English. This was done succesffuly, the English were driven into the sea.

well, about this time, the Japanese (my ally) attacked the persians and the babylonians, which drew me into more wars. I wouldn't have cared, except for the fact that I had a ROP w/ the persians that I used to attack the english. So now, almost all of my offensive units (modern armor) were on one side of the map, in my new english cities, and my homeland on the other. luckily my other allies, the zulu and the French (how did they survive this long?) were a buffer, so I could build a new attack force to attack the persians. This ended up not being a big deal, I eventually captured all but one persian city ( a city on an island I forgot about, would have demanded it for peace)

I then made peace w/ the english and the persians
but, one turn later, the they attacked the japanese, forcing me back into battle (as per the MPP) but before my turn comes around, is the Japanese turn. Well, damn, they decide they want no more of the MPP.

WTF is that? The same turn I am forced to join a war for the Japanese, they turn around and decide they no longer want the alliance! Argh. very annoying. now back at war with the other 2 civs. I desperately needed a break to help the war weariness, and to build up a navy to hunt down the remaining cities.

	08-04-2002 05:41									#16
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Ah, but as I have just discovered... MPPs can be goood.

Game in a small map as Russians, my enemys: Americans, Indians, Chineese. Difficulty: Emperor (as close to diety as I dare)

Early game- conquest, conquest, conquest (despotic whip made good use of) *boom* no more Americans

Mid game-UGh, damn chineese got WAAAy ahead in the tech, good thing they like me; they are the only thing that stands between me and the blood-thirsty Indians on the opposite side of the continent. (I have stopped conquest to try and catch up in tech by trades and diplomacy and such; I end up with most of what I want from good ol' China and an MPP with em.)

Late game- My research is were I want it, im constructing an army of Modern Armor & Radio Artillery (Deadly combo) with a few nukes as last-ditch.(My target is India but I don't want to have to deal with China later so... I'll let Inda do it for me...*demand* *demand* "Inda declared war on Russia!")

A lot of fighiting ensues between the Chineese and Indians that ends in Inda razing everything, immidatly followed by me marching in and mopping up the remmnants of Indias army and bombing all his luxuries/resources to hell. Easy Victory, I have only my good (allbeit dead) allies the Chineese!

	08-04-2002 06:08									#17
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I love nukes.
If an enemy army is congregated in a city, a single nuke will take out almost all of said army.

It also can be used to knock out a large segment of roads quickly and easily, and to knock out access to resources as well. I especially like doing it where the computer builds their city right next to several strategic resources :P.

You just have to be prepared for a retaliatory strike immediately following your strike. Just hit them with more than they hit you with, and have a lot of workers out where they won't nuke (To clean up pollution and rebuild the improvements, of course!), and vacate any important troops from your cities prior to nuking the enemy, and you should be fine. They usually won't be expecting a nuclear attack, but you should be expecting a retaliatory strike, so you will hold up better. Assuming you don't depend on something like 5 cities to support your entire empire, of course.

	08-04-2002 09:57									#18
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

The Military advisor is important to determine if an AI civ is likely to attack you. Check this advisor often, and examine every civ. Anytime the military advisor says your army is "weak" compared to an AI civ, that's a danger sign. Build your army up.

If you want to deter an attack, build lots of cheap units. Even warriors or workers will do, but for best results just build a strong army.

If you want to be sneaky, build a few strong units like Knights or Cavalry (depending on era). The military advisor's strength assessment is purely numeric, and if you have 10 Knights and they have 30 Warriors, your army is considered "weak". So if you have a small but powerful army, you can often lure an AI into declaring war on you. You will then get the pleasure of wiping out most of their army very quickly, and conquering large swaths of their territory. I have wiped out a few AI civs this way.

	08-04-2002 21:48									#19
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Just finished another game, and India did it AGAIN!!! I think Vodka had it right -- probably a little sadistic programmer humor going on.

I did notice some things that might play in to it. I played through a couple quick games to see what circumstances the AI decided to backstab me. From what I've seen, it looks like two things dictated them attacking.

- Proximity of my borders to theirs: Might seem like a no brainer, but I've never had problems if they don't directly border on me. One thing I did find is that they don't seem to get aggresive until all the available land is claimed. I suppose that they don't start looking to take some of my cities until they can't build anymore themselves -- maybe a bit of the "Manifest Destiny" mindset of 19th century America programmed in to the AI?

- Amount of culture relative to theirs: I also noticed that they are likely to attack if my culture is way higher than theirs. Not sure if envy was programmed in to the AI, if they feel threatened that their cities are going to convert, or if it's just coincidence. Historically, it would make sense that a culturally weaker society attacked a culturally advanced society.

I might be off base, but that's what I have seen.

-- twistedx

	09-04-2002 00:08									#20
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I agree India is a *****!

(Not in real life, only the game)

	09-04-2002 00:49									#21
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Gandhi backstabbed you? This is something I LEAST expect in this game. Doesn't India has aggressiveness of 1 or something?

Firaxis, what have you done to The Great Soul?

	09-04-2002 00:56									#22
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I find the whole "dirty, backstabbin' Indians" thing rather funny.

I can't recall them ever backstabbing me. However, I can recall two games where they where helpful, trustworthy allies.

I think you people just need to back off and leave that lovable Gandhi bear alone.

	10-04-2002 01:46									#23
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Grr, Ghandi bear grr.... Must... kill....

I'm starting my first Diety lvl game (Standard map, pangea, 7 civs)
India is RIGHT NEXT TO ME! argh.... that dirty little anerexic already wants tribute! Oh well, i'm massing horseys and swordsmen to take care of him; first thing on my agenda was to kill him and make him my "vassal state". Heheheh he will be the one paying tribute soon... hopefully.

Just to comment on diety, that dirty comp started with like 4 workers... saw them a few seconds into the game (they are so close to me my worrior only moved 2 times and saw em.