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Nemo
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of no one.
Apr 1999
time: 23:12
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bye, yin.
as a moderator you can't be someone going around stirring up trouble all the time, as you did. If you wanted to do that you should have not accepted the possition as a moderator. i respect the hard work you have put in, but am actually happy that you, and you opinions, are not at a moderator status.
as a moderator, you need to have an unbiased view point. And if a company gives you information, they expect that you are business minded enough, not to hand it out to the public, esp. w/o their permission (if that is the case or not, i am still unclear. but since it was "private" i expect it was not intended for teh public). I'll bet that it is with this "understanding" (and of course being a great source for their customers input, and a marketing ploy) that Apolyton gets the interviews, and developer output that they do, because they are respected by the industry, and seen as a professional site. Posting a private message, esp. in its entirety is NOT professional, and if it rubbed firaxis the wrong way, may even hinder future bits of info on the game.
Not professional, not moderator-like ...bye yin.
[This message has been edited by Nemo (edited March 06, 2001).]
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kolpo
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Because of the offensive non constructive tone of the message fail I to understand why it is so wrong to post that. There was also no clear written rule about that subject. I don't know any democratic country where someone can be punished for doing something that isn't clearly against the written rules. The only nations where things like that can happen are communistic and despotistic nations. And yes you have the complet freedom to rule this site on wathever unfair communistic way you want just like Sadam has the complet freedom to rule Irak like he wants, it is his country after all ? But just like with Sadam want I to say that the fact that it is his country(your server) doesn't make it good and doesn't change the fact that it is unfair.
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Darkstar
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Huntsville, AL, USA
May 1999
time: 23:12
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Lord of the Mark... Great Suggestion! Everyone! Let's go to Kolpo's house!
You know, my main concern is that Yin, like the other moderators here, are volunteers. Mark, Dan, you get what you pay for. Since you aren't paying them, you cannot reasonably expect them to act anything less then the posters they are. If you are lucky, they will mellow out a bit. From what I recall of Yin back on Alpha.Owo, he is very mellow here.
However, take a lesson out of this, Mark and Dan. Write down every rule and code of conduct that you PRESUME everyone else will know when they are a moderator for Apolyton. Because the odds are, they won't know them all. That's human nature. Then, give it to your moderators. As it sounds like Yin wasn't told that what he did would be so worrisome to Mark, it sounds like if that had been done before hand, Yin may have understand that to have done as he had would be a great risk.
I would hope that this matter settles, and that Yin and Mark remain on good terms. If Yin would rather not be the moderator, then congrats. If Yin would, then I would hope that Yin and Mark can shake hands and settle this odd matter to each's satisfaction.
-Darkstarr
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markusf
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After reading this i have to ask, what the hell is wrong with you mark and yin? As far as i can tell the article is a development philosophy which hits very close to the truth. As for this in any way harming a "relationship" between firixas and apolyton, that’s the dumbest thing i have heard in a while. Firixas doesn't give a **** about apolyton, it’s a promotional tool, and a site to get quick responses and ideas from potential customers nothing more. This may not be how you see it but it’s the way things are in the software world. All major software releases need user acceptance testing, or user requirements. With software like games, this is nearly impossible to do, but places like apolyton fill that role to an extent. As a developer, i find much of what is posted in the civ3 forum useless, ie a thread about someone whining that the musketeer has only 3 points on his hat. Or someone complaining about any proposed changes from the original civ 2 etc etc. Anyways i find yin's threads a breath of fresh air, as like this thread they should what software development is like in reality not in fantasy. btw can i be moderator? :P
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Boo MarkG. Boo.
Mark, if a topic has been discussed even once before, even if it was months ago, another topic on it can't be discussed without being called a troll? Ok, now how many threads, on all forums, using your logic would be closed? More than I would care to count. Yin just posted an article which is of importance to the civ 3 community since they will be buying the game. We all now know for sure who's ass you kiss and who you care about. Both of those answers are the developers. Hey **** us right, we are just customers, we can be replaced with advertising.
Yin, I'm sorry to hear how you were thrown out, and how you had to recieve that sorry excuse of a thank you from MarkG.
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tmarcl
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Baltimore, MD USA
Feb 2001
time: 00:12
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Just to add my two cents:
Yin, I have to say that Mark was right to be upset. Posting a private message on a public forum (especially one where the writer is an active participant) is very rude. At best, it shows a lack of respect for the writer, at worst, it's a breach of trust. If you had a problem with something Mark had said (and I agree with you, the wording of the letter was a little harsh), then you need to take it up with him privately.
Also, remember that as Administrator, Mark was your boss. Talking back to your boss in any situation is a bad idea. Again, it shows lack of respect. Note, I'm not saying don't disagree with your boss-it's the best way for your boss to know what s/he is doing right or wrong, but you should never do it in an angry tone, and *certainly* never in a public forum (Yes, I know you didn't say who had written the letter, but you did know Mark would read it). I've lost a job before for arguing with my employer in front of customers, so I know whereof I speak. On the other hand, I had another employer with whom I disagreed constantly-but did so in a respectful manner. Though I no longer work with him (he couldn't afford to pay me the money I needed), we are still good friends, and he took many of my suggestions seriously.
Now that I'm done yelling at Yin, it's your turn Mark :-). While I agree with your decision, I have to say that I do disagree with your disciplining Yin publically. It's a humiliating experience to tell people (many of whom have dealt with Yin for two years-and worse, many who don't even know him!) that he no longer has your trust-and why. It also hurts his chances of becoming a list moderator somewhere else. Imagine I had a forum on my site and was thinking of asking Yin to moderate it-do you think I would now? Of course not. I know without even talking to you (his boss) or to his references (and yes, I'd ask for them :-) ) that he is insubordinate and untrustworthy. I'm certainly not going to waste my time looking to see if his work is good enough to excuse one lapse. Worse yet, I'm going to know this for as long as the post is up (which could be months from now), which is even more humiliating for Yin (assuming of course that he learns his lesson). In my opinion (and the opinion of successful bosses that I've spoken to/worked with), the best way to discipline an employee is in private. It saves him/her the humiliation of being dressed down in front of their peers, and keeps the customers from realizing there was ever a problem (because quite frankly, I do *not* want to know that you're having troubles with your moderators. It completely shakes my confidence in your site overall.)
I'm not going to stop reading and posting on Apolyton, it's an enjoyable site overall (though if you could somehow add a spell checker to the posting mechanism, it'd be great-now I have to cut and paste to MicroWord), and my opinion is, as always, worth exactly what you paid for it.
Marc
[This message has been edited by tmarcl (edited March 07, 2001).]
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yin26
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This space reserved for Darkstar.
Apr 1999
time: 14:12
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Well, while I agree with much of what you've said, his post to me was a bait that I knowingly took. Keep in mind, I never mentioned his name. This, I think, is significant. Had he not blown his mind, I never would have revealed the poster. But I won't begin to try to justify myself, since I'd do it again if only to get out from working under those conditions.
Something you fail to realize, though, is that this is a volunteer position. I don't need ****ty remarks from my "boss" who owes me a hell of a lot more than that if not a goddamn paycheck. But I went in for free. That was my choice.
Another thing you mention is "humiliation." Frankly, I think this is FAR more humiliating for Markos. If anything, it shows his lack of leadership in a time of crisis. And do you really think I give one rat's butt about being a moderator somewhere else? That's a joke. I guarantee you if some other site asked me to be a moderator, it would be because they agree with my style.
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OldWarrior_42
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Obviously you miss the point by what I intended to show to you through your initial statement. You read with literal translation. Read again or not. I don't wish to explain it.
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OldWarrior_42
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Then the next logical step for you to have followed would have been one of acting professional by telling him privately that you felt he was out of place in posting that article again as long as he was a moderator and that you would like for him to not do it anymore as long as he wishes to remain a moderator.
Your PM was very demeaning and reeked of trolling on your position as well. Calling someone in roundabout ways was exactly the image portrayed by the disclosure of that message by Yin.
If you say he worded it wrong and you didn't print it to him in that manner, then please disclose just how you did post it. Otherwise it seems to me you were baiting him or just picking a fight and looking for a reason to can him.
Or getting insulted and "taking your bat and ball". :P~~~~~~
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OldWarrior_42
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And your initial statement should have read... "I did't have a problem with him starting a discussion on bugs as long as he was not a moderator . But since he is, then it is my opinion that his choice of reviving a dead issue(as I see it) will not be allowed."
The way you wrote it is what I felt was (and I stress the words...the way I felt) contradictory.
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Adm.Naismith
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Milano - Italy
Oct 1999
time: 06:12
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Now I don't want to repeat my first post on this thread. I only want to underline that:
1) has been mentioned as bad to quote the full JM article. While this can be bad for bandwith, I think this is the most fair way to quote so sensible argument.
2) The article is old, but JM never posted a different opinion AFAIK (and surely he can read and reply, if he wants), so it's not as he changed his mind and someone still use old interview to "fake" JM point of view.
3) Private mail is that, private but, as far as someone quote a private message in a way that no one can know who was the original sender, and the quoted part (as full as possible, see point 1) don't point to damage someone, I think it's acceptable.
When I red the message quoted by Yin I supposed was by a flamer, not by MarkG, until he replyed uncovering the whole "can of worms"  .
I don't think all this is a good event for this forum, but I worry it's going worse and worse every time Yin and MarkG reply.
Please, STOP and cool down! It's almost like seeing two friends of mine insulting each other. It make me feel very, very sad 
Almost as sad as would be a Civ III full of bugs 
------------------
Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant
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07-03-2001 10:11
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