08-04-2002 05:38									#31
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Bah! Materialism rules .

Historical materialism, that is.

quote: I'd rather have a computer industry so I can talk to people all over the world rather than not even developing the technology (because there is no profit).

Just because there's no profit motive doesn't mean there's no motive to continue improving the conditions of human existence. Despite the disaster that Stalin and Lysenko were for Soviet science, they made massive leaps in science and technology. In physics and medicine, the Soviets were neck and neck with the West almost up to the end.

Remeber the OpenSource movement. There isn't much profit there (at least not yet, despite some IPO insanity during the tech bubble). People don't create and produce Linux and GIMP etc to make money, but because they love their work. It fulfills a creative need that all humans have. That will still exist. And because we believe in a democractic society, instead of having to convince people with money that you idea is good, you just have to convince your fellow citizens.

If it were up to the American public, we'd have had air bags in autos twenty years before the car companies finally got around to doing it. In many many cases, supply lags far behind demand because the people with money don't see a need for the product.

	08-04-2002 05:53									#32
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Ecthelion, CPA stands for certified public accountant. ============= I some aspects, I agree with Comrade Miller, in that we need to keep focused on the main goal of communism. However, I disagree with the comrade on what that goal is. The goal of communism is not public ownership of companies, etc., but freedom. Specifically, freedom from necessity. By freedom from necessity I mean the conditions of current human existence that require the vast majority of humanity to waste their existences slaving away to secure the material conditions necessary for existence. Most people spend their entire waking life either working to obtain the food, clothing, housing, etc. they need or are recovering from work and replenishing themselves for the next day's work. Despite the fact that we live comparatively better than our ancestors, it is but a gilded cage. Our ancestors standard of living may have been poor than ours, but they had substantially more free time in which to relate with other human beings, to produce art (folk art is still art), etc. Revolution, economic democracy, public ownership of the means of production are not ends in themselves, but means to an end. By abolishing profit, by abolishing unecessary labor, by allowing people to have control over their workplaces, we anticipate that the overall amount of work necessary to produce the necessities of life will be diminished. This will increase the amount of time available for us to concentrate on those things that make us most human: socializing, producing art, science, exploring ourselves and the world, or even just more time to sit around and play Civ. Because our movement is a movement based upon freedom, we need to touch upon all things which enslave us. We need to speak out about all opression, because it is our aim to abolish it. We need to address the concerns that people have about those things that diminish their quality of life, because we aim to create a society which enhances our quality of life. Because our movement is a movement which is opposed to the way things are, we need to know why things are the way they are. How did they come to be that way? Why are they still that way? Why have attempts to change it failed? In what ways they have succeeded? Most importantly, how do we get to where we want to be? None of these questions can be answered by one person or even a small core group of highly educated people. The answers can only be discovered by the most rigorous debate and study and practice. Answers that were once true may no longer be true, because conditions have changed. Underlying truths may still be correct, but how do we apply them to the realities we face today? Which brings me around to my original agreement with Jon. What is important is not so much a laundry list of agreements and demands upon reality. What is important is a method for understanding what tasks lie before us and what concrete activity is required of us. Although I do believe that most of what Marx, Engels, etc. have written is as true today as it was in the days it was written, the most important weapon our former comrades left is their method. It runs like a golden thread through their writings. Understanding this method makes our task easier (though still herculean). What is this thread? It is historical matieralism. It is my position that an understanding of historical materialism necessary for anyone who hopes to change the world.

yes it is not the ownership of corportations (but that is the best way to do so)

rather it is working together to help mankind

communism shares a common goal with lots of otherthings, it is a method for society to work better

it is just the best method

Jon Miller

	08-04-2002 05:59									#33
	Remove this text

quote: Just because there's no profit motive doesn't mean there's no motive to continue improving the conditions of human existence. Despite the disaster that Stalin and Lysenko were for Soviet science, they made massive leaps in science and technology. In physics and medicine, the Soviets were neck and neck with the West almost up to the end.

They profited handsomely. Just because the SU said it was communist, didn't mean they didn't have ways for its scientists to profit, by bigger houses, better cars, etc.

Yes, opensource is a big thing... but the main capital intensive industries of making computers and parts, which made opensource viable, cannot be done by 'creative' designers. Only way to make large appliances and consumer goods is through the corporation.

	08-04-2002 06:01									#34
	Inflate your Upload Space

scientist don't do it for the money

Jon Miller
(at least I do not care about the money)

	08-04-2002 06:02									#35
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Just because there's no profit motive doesn't mean there's no motive to continue improving the conditions of human existence. Despite the disaster that Stalin and Lysenko were for Soviet science, they made massive leaps in science and technology. In physics and medicine, the Soviets were neck and neck with the West almost up to the end. They profited handsomely. Just because the SU said it was communist, didn't mean they didn't have ways for its scientists to profit, by bigger houses, better cars, etc. Yes, opensource is a big thing... but the main capital intensive industries of making computers and parts, which made opensource viable, cannot be done by 'creative' designers. Only way to make large appliances and consumer goods is through the corporation.

I don't care about a bigger house either

Jon Miller

	08-04-2002 06:04									#36
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: I don't care about a bigger house either

But I do .

quote: scientist don't do it for the money

Plenty of R&D people do it for the money though.

And that guy who split from the Human Genome Project did it for profit as well.

	08-04-2002 06:07									#37
	Tired of ads?

in the time of More (as in Sir Thomas More), all that was needed for great wealth by a nation was just 4-6 hours a day of good labor

think about how much more effeiceint things are now (of course people want more also)

people do not need to work their asses off and should not need to

they should have time for their families and to enjoy things in life

now I can see having some sort of award system (especially with our current materialstic culture)

in fact I would argue that things should be done gradually (first nationalizing industry and corporations (but do that slowly also))

one area that I disagree with you Chi is I think the main thing communism is trying to do is make people happy

now happy people must have quite a bit of freedom, but there must be limits also

Jon Miller

	08-04-2002 06:07									#38
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Three guys in a garage created the first Apple computer. They did this out of the love of making computers. Once the concept is demonstrated, society could easily put the capital together to create a collective for making computers.

Furthermore, research collectives could easily exist for the prupose of pure research, without having to be tied to coming up with products that "have a market." Imagine if Xerox Park was a collective in 1973. We could have had "Macs" on the market a full decade earlier.

	08-04-2002 06:09									#39
	Put an end to popups!

all scientists need is a research lab or an institution

now current society is not fair to scientists, it gives the fruit of scientists labor to the big corporations and the wealthy

Jon Miller

	08-04-2002 06:11									#40
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Plenty of R&D people do it for the money though.

Money only became an object for R&D people recently. Generally their research was done through a major corporation which benefitted or a university, in which case everyone benefitted. These days universities are patenting and selling off the rights to the stuff their scientists create.

That doesn't mean that threa reason R&D people do it is becuase of the money. They'd still be doing it even if they were only getting recognition, since the real prize is doing it.

	08-04-2002 06:11									#41
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller now current society is not fair to scientists, it gives the fruit of scientists labor to the big corporations and the wealthy

How is that not fair? Why shouldn't the people who pay for the research get the fruit of the labor? After all, they payed the scientist for his work.

	08-04-2002 06:12									#42
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

actually I hope for a time when money is no longer used

each produces what he is capable, than all receive what they need

maybe there can be some sort of honor system also, to recognize who does well (does not need to be maeterialistic)

Jon Miller

	08-04-2002 06:13									#43
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Three guys in a garage created the first Apple computer. They did this out of the love of making computers. Once the concept is demonstrated, society could easily put the capital together to create a collective for making computers.

'society' can put capital together? This isn't utopia.

Apple Computer would have died if a venture capitalist hadn't funded them to mass produce computers.

Profit is what drives technological progress. Technology that isn't widespread really isn't progress at all. And leads to the spread of technology? That's right, the profit motive and mass production that can only happen through the corporation.

Communism is a pipe dream, capitalism is the reality. Get used to it .

	08-04-2002 06:14									#44
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc How is that not fair? Why shouldn't the people who pay for the research get the fruit of the labor? After all, they payed the scientist for his work.

By and large, in the US, it is the American people who pay for the research (depending on the product). The rights are then sold to a private corporation at far below market cost, and the company then proceeds to make a lot of money off something for which we have already paid.

	08-04-2002 06:17									#45
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Money only became an object for R&D people recently. Generally their research was done through a major corporation which benefitted or a university, in which case everyone benefitted. These days universities are patenting and selling off the rights to the stuff their scientists create. That doesn't mean that threa reason R&D people do it is becuase of the money. They'd still be doing it even if they were only getting recognition, since the real prize is doing it.

which wasn't fair

the corporations would make people pay stuff the scientists provided for free

sceintists saw this and decided that they should be getting of it

scientists would do it for free (well they have their needs)

they are just reacting to the unfairness of it all

there really should be no such thing as corporations doing things for profit

corporations are a step backwards

Jon Miller

	08-04-2002 06:20									#46
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui 'society' can put capital together? This isn't utopia.

Yes. People can produce far more than they need to survive, hence the viablity of capitalism in the first place. If, in a communist society, we decided to make the resources avaialbe for personal computers to be created, it wouldn't be much of a problem at all.

quote: Apple Computer would have died if a venture capitalist hadn't funded them to mass produce computers.

That's because they did it in a capitalist society. In a communist society they wouldn't need a venture capitalist.

quote: Profit is what drives technological progress. Technology that isn't widespread really isn't progress at all. And leads to the spread of technology? That's right, the profit motive and mass production that can only happen through the corporation.

In capitalism yes. In a free society, no. And who says that technology wouldn't be widespread in a free communist society. We have the internet (developed by the public sector) to spread ideas. We have the public airwaves to spread ideas. We would have magzines and newspapers to spread ideas. Why do you think that a communist society would be a parochial one?

quote: capitalism is the reality. Get used to it .

For now.

	08-04-2002 06:20									#47
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Three guys in a garage created the first Apple computer. They did this out of the love of making computers. Once the concept is demonstrated, society could easily put the capital together to create a collective for making computers. 'society' can put capital together? This isn't utopia. Apple Computer would have died if a venture capitalist hadn't funded them to mass produce computers. Profit is what drives technological progress. Technology that isn't widespread really isn't progress at all. And leads to the spread of technology? That's right, the profit motive and mass production that can only happen through the corporation. Communism is a pipe dream, capitalism is the reality. Get used to it .

society puts capital together all the time

technology does follow profit

technology gets done if society is willing to pay for it

people have made capitalism the reality

I think it is a pretty poor reality

Jon Miller

	08-04-2002 06:33									#48
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: In a communist society they wouldn't need a venture capitalist.

No, because only those three and their friends would have had an Apple and everyone else would be SOL .

quote: And who says that technology wouldn't be widespread in a free communist society.

Look through history... technological change follows when the profit motive is highest. As capitalism became more widespread and developed, technological progress followed.

Capitalism and technology are just about intertwined. They depend on each other.

	08-04-2002 06:37									#49
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Technology is a means to profit, but sometimes the means to profit is the suppression of technology. In these cases, technology is suppresed, sometimes for generations, as in the case of car air bags. For another example of the suppression of technology, see the movie, Tucker.

In a communist society, the increase of technology would be persued in order for people's lives to be made better by technology, not because someone can sell something. If you think that a democratic communist society would have decided that it didn't need computers, then you are a great fool, Imran.

	08-04-2002 06:37									#50
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: In a communist society they wouldn't need a venture capitalist. No, because only those three and their friends would have had an Apple and everyone else would be SOL . quote: And who says that technology wouldn't be widespread in a free communist society. Look through history... technological change follows when the profit motive is highest. As capitalism became more widespread and developed, technological progress followed. Capitalism and technology are just about intertwined. They depend on each other.

no they don't

now science and what people want are connected

and capitalism connects them through profit

but communism can connect them as well

by providing labs and training in the areas that people want

Jon Miller

	08-04-2002 06:40									#51
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Jon, see how arguments about communism necessarily lead to discussions beyond simple public ownership of the means of production. It's tangentially related, yes, but technology and capitalism is a different discussion. Because capitalism touches all aspects of our lives, we need to have an idea of how socialism will change this relationship for the better.

	08-04-2002 06:41									#52
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: In a communist society, the increase of technology would be persued in order for people's lives to be made better by technology, not because someone can sell something. If you think that a democratic communist society would have decided that it didn't need computers, then you are a great fool, Imran.

Then I'm a great fool

I don't think computers and the internet revolution would have occured if say... the Great Depression led to a communist state. Sorry... the computer revolution took place because of capitalism.. there was money to be made (who would have decided it was needed back in the late 70s?)

	08-04-2002 06:46									#53
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Jon, see how arguments about communism necessarily lead to discussions beyond simple public ownership of the means of production. It's tangentially related, yes, but technology and capitalism is a different discussion. Because capitalism touches all aspects of our lives, we need to have an idea of how socialism will change this relationship for the better.

we are still discussing ownership of the means of production

Jon Miller

	08-04-2002 06:47									#54
	Inflate your Upload Space

Why can't we spam this thread?

Communist censorship

Bloody communist control freaks

	08-04-2002 06:47									#55
	Tired of ads?

Spammity, spam, spam.

	08-04-2002 06:50									#56
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I spam for capitalism!

	08-04-2002 06:53									#57
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I spam for capitalism!

and ytou were discussing things

Jon Miller

	08-04-2002 06:54									#58
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Why can't we spam this thread?

It's not like we can stop you. We'd just rather you didn't.

	08-04-2002 06:56									#59
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It's not like we can stop you. We'd just rather you didn't.

Yes but you would if you could - it would be off to the gulags for old horsie

	08-04-2002 06:59									#60
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Yes but you would if you could - it would be off to the gulags for old horsie

Horsie is persona non grata!