08-04-2002 07:00									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Yes but you would if you could - it would be off to the gulags for old horsie

I wouldn;'t

amd Chi claims to be more freedom loving than I

Jon Miller

	08-04-2002 07:01									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui the computer revolution took place because of capitalism.. there was money to be made (who would have decided it was needed back in the late 70s?)

The computer revolution took place because of the cold war. It was government funding that drove the development of computers for a long time. Heck, IBM wasn't even interested in them at first. The first computers were built with government money (both in England and in the US). The researches didn't try and make computers to get rich (which they didn't), but because they loved building things (and partially to help the war effort).

I don't know if you're a creative person or not, Imran, but creative people, whether artists or musicians or authors or scientists or designers or engineers, have a need to experiment and create, to explore the world and to express themselves. Other's people's money make it possible for us to do this, but if it wern't there, we'd do it anyways. It's what we love to do. It's what we have to do. This is one reason why a communist society would be superior, because instead of having to grub for money, creative and inquisitive people would be able express themselves and explore the world, and society as a whole would benefit.

	08-04-2002 07:09									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Yes but you would if you could - it would be off to the gulags for old horsie

I believe in freedom of expression and freedom of belief. If you were being deliberately disruptive (and this is a poor troll, since I can use it to launch an actual discussion ) I might consider locking the door if we were meeting in a room, or complaining to the Mods for say, posting pictures of penises. But that is because you would be trying to deny our rights to freedom of expression and freedom of debate.

Personally, I welcome your silliness and play, because they are necessary for human psychological health. (Such expressions have often gotten me frowned upon by my more dour comrades.) And commies need to be silly and play too. It's part of being human.

	08-04-2002 07:20									#64
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quote: This is one reason why a communist society would be superior, because instead of having to grub for money, creative and inquisitive people would be able express themselves and explore the world, and society as a whole would benefit.

And technology would suffer as a consequence. You can be creative, just don't expect me to pay for your flights of fancy .

Society benefits much more from advancements in technology than creativeness.

	08-04-2002 07:37									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Society benefits much more from advancements in technology than creativeness.

You think society doesn't benefit from music?

	08-04-2002 07:41									#66
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Notice I didn't say it doesn't benefit society AT ALL, but rather much less than advancements in technology.... and yes music has much less benefit than computers or drug research.

	08-04-2002 07:45									#67
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If you make the sole motive of science improving the quality of people's lives... you will restict it severely. Many things that may be useful eventually will not be discovered. If making people's lives better was the sole motive, then...

Quantum physics would be unknown (how exactly does it improve people's lives?)

We would never have been to the Moon.

We would never have sent out space probes into the solar system.

The Theory of Relativity would not exist.

We would not know about the atom.

We would not know about evolution.

And of course, just because you intend to do right, doesn't mean you do. If the world was run by communists, we might have decided that it would improve people's lives to dump all of our pollution in places where people don't go and use up the world's resources just as capitlaism does (except that because the benefits are going to everyone, no-one complains and therefore no restrictions are placed).

People aren't suddenly far more visionary just because they're now working for everyone else and not themselves.

	08-04-2002 07:55									#68
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That's a valid critique, GT. However, I'd like to hope that a democratically run society might be a bit smarter about it's impact on the environment. I thing we might, at least, have not dumped so much pollution into our own backyards. But if we did, it would be our own fault, instead of something that was done to us by someone else.

	08-04-2002 08:23									#69
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Well, if everyone is working for the benefit of everyone else, that's not all that much of a change from capitalism. The only difference is that the profits are spread around.

And just because a society is capitalist, doesn't mean it's ruled by corporations. The corporations don't have any power except what is given to them. I agree that now it seems that corporations have too much power, but it doesn't have to be that way.

	08-04-2002 08:25									#70
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quote: However, I'd like to hope that a democratically run society might be a bit smarter about it's impact on the environment

*looks at American public*

I'd doubt it .

	08-04-2002 11:13									#71
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JM et al, the development in society the recent 10 years or so show that the old communist parties have been side-tracked by reality. What is needed now is wide-ranging alliances, look at Italys Rifondazione Communista, Brazils PT, Denmarks red green Enhedlisten, Portugals Bloco de Esquerda and Great Britains Socialist Alliance. They have all managed to turn the tide so to speak, and this is by incorporating all or some of the subjects we discussed earlier.

And Horsie, we wouldn´t shoot you. We would make you the court jester/fool...

	08-04-2002 11:23									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Kamrat X JM et al, the development in society the recent 10 years or so show that the old communist parties have been side-tracked by reality. What is needed now is wide-ranging alliances, look at Italys Rifondazione Communista, Brazils PT, Denmarks red green Enhedlisten, Portugals Bloco de Esquerda and Great Britains Socialist Alliance. They have all managed to turn the tide so to speak, and this is by incorporating all or some of the subjects we discussed earlier. And Horsie, we wouldn´t shoot you. We would make you the court jester/fool...

please explain further (how have they become sidetracked by reality??P??

it seems to me that many 'communist' parties have basically shifted communism under the rug and took on different battles

when today, in the time of Globalisation, we need communism (the standard communism), more than ever

Jon Miller

	08-04-2002 13:31									#73
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Wait a minute , I am for incentives , such as higher pay, etc.

I just don't think the capitalist system is the way to do it.

	08-04-2002 13:38									#74
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oh ,and Jon, I find myself agreeing with you on more and more issues.

GT , I think by exploring the world , people would also engage in pure theoretical science, not only one that would lead to discoveries straight away. After all , it's not like corporations have an interest in scientific research. Most of it is paid by govts.

	08-04-2002 19:17									#75
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bump ... trying to keep it in the top page...

so KX, how would your perfect state look?

	08-04-2002 20:40									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Dalgetti bump ... trying to keep it in the top page... so KX, how would your perfect state look?

Haven´t I made that clear? I basically want what you guys want, but a lot more non-polluting and equal in all respects.

	08-04-2002 20:51									#77
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I think that as a party with a socio-econo-political agenda, we should first more or less agree on that . I am not quite sure that we agree since it's our first non-spam meeting that discusses this issue,IIRC.


And no splitters!

Last edited by Az on 08-04-2002 at 20:56

	08-04-2002 21:55									#78
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hmmm

bump until I can post tonight

Jon Miller

	08-04-2002 22:33									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller please explain further (how have they become sidetracked by reality??P?? it seems to me that many 'communist' parties have basically shifted communism under the rug and took on different battles when today, in the time of Globalisation, we need communism (the standard communism), more than ever Jon Miller

When the Berlin wall fell it created havoc in large segments of the commie movement, those who could adapt did so. Those who couldn´t now spend their measly existence whining about how it was better in the old days.

It also affected the commie movement in the way that suddenly all of Trotskys theories on the degenerated workers states became obsolete. This left various trotskyist groupings aimlessly wandering about without any real purpose or tools to deal with the situation.

The long winter lasted 5 years, until new years day 1994. When the zapatistas marched into San Christóbal de las Casas. This sparked a new wawe of public awareness and radicalization among youth.

The anti-MAI campaign united enviromentalists like Friends of the Earth (FoE) with the commie movement, in Sweden FoE Sweden and Socialist Party, Sweden (USFI) among others campaigned ferociously against MAI. As was the case in several other european countries. The campaign was a success the treaty was never signed. The EU-summit also started to get regular protests as a follower. In Amsterdam in 1997 50 000+ people demonstrated against neo-liberalism. The demonstrations included greens, trade unions, communists, anarchists, etc.

Seattle´99 made this a global movement, "teamsters and turtles" on a global scale so to speak. This is a wawe we´re riding yet today. Global radicalization of youth and workers on a variety of subjects. To say that this is diverting the attention away from the struggle for the proletarian revolution is, to put it mildly, ostrich behaviour.

For example, in Brazil the Brazilian Communist Party (PCB) and all its fellow stalinist/maoist/hoxaist comrades was completely sidetracked by the surge of left radicalism that created the World Social Forum in 1998. The main left opposition lies instead in Partido dos Trabalhadores (PT) especially in the state of Rio Grande do Sul and Porto Alegre where the left current in PT Democracia Socialista rules. PT supports and cooperates with organizations like ATTAC-Brazil, FoE Brazil, Movement of Landless Rural Laborers (MST) where as the PCB and others don´t really take part in this new movement thus leaving them "sidetracked by reality". This tendency (sic!) can also be seen in a variety of countries in Europe. In Sweden it´s only Socialist Party(USFI) that really participates in the new movement with their connections to FoE Sweden and ATTAC.

I mentioned ATTAC, and I really believe that they will make a difference. They have gathered people around them who have, until now, been somewhat unaware of the threat that neo-liberalism poses to humanity and the earth. In Sweden we had a massive radicalization of the ATTAC cadre during the EU-summit in Gothenburg. They saw with their own eyes the fascist face of the bourgeouis state (to use some RAF-terminology) and was rudely awakened from their petty-bourgeouis conception of democracy.

I don´t say that ATTAC will lead the proletarian revolution, but it´s a fertile ground for open-minded communists.

Does this answer your question, JM?

	08-04-2002 22:39									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Dalgetti I think that as a party with a socio-econo-political agenda, we should first more or less agree on that . I am not quite sure that we agree since it's our first non-spam meeting that discusses this issue,IIRC.

I agree to the socio-econo-political agenda, I just don´t think we shall limit us to that

quote: And no splitters!

We are communists, therefore we split! Face it it´s harder to make communists work together than to make Dubya talk sense...

	08-04-2002 23:15									#81
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standard communism is not trotskyist, Leninist, or even marxist

so I do not see how some theories that they have made being invalidated invalidates communism

and I see the 'new communism' as getting sidetracked and losing it's focus

Jon Miller

	08-04-2002 23:22									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller standard communism is not trotskyist, Leninist, or even marxist so I do not see how some theories that they have made being invalidated invalidates communism and I see the 'new communism' as getting sidetracked and losing it's focus Jon Miller

Then what do YOU base your communism on? Marxism is the base for all modern communism, this is a fact.

Or is it just a side-stepping of the question? You´re wriggling like worm on a hook here, Jon

	08-04-2002 23:24									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Kamrat X Then what do YOU base your communism on? Marxism is the base for all modern communism, this is a fact. Or is it just a side-stepping of the question? You´re wriggling like worm on a hook here, Jon

read the works of the ealy communists and read about the early premarxist communist societies (that worked!!!!)

Marx had some good ideas, but I do not follow him

I combine good ideas from all over (and from as far back as Plato)

Jon Miller

	08-04-2002 23:25									#84
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oh

and I am an original thinker

many of my ideas are new to myself

Jon Miller

	08-04-2002 23:28									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller read the works of the ealy communists and read about the early premarxist communist societies (that worked!!!!)

Like which societies excactly? Got any links?

quote: Marx had some good ideas, but I do not follow him I combine good ideas from all over (and from as far back as Plato) Jon Miller

Then you´re not really a communist IMO. Sorry, JM

	09-04-2002 00:01									#86
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Now, now, Komrat X, we don't law sole claim to communism. After all, there were communists before Marx. We just lay claim to communism based on scientifc theories, rather than morality.

We are not communists just because we think it would be nice to live in a better world. We are communists because we know communism is a superior system, and it has been proven to be so. Under similar condition, the degenerated workers states always out perform capitalist ones. Under ideal conditions, such ass the United States has, we would bury them.

We are communists because the internal logic of capitalism means that only one of two outcomes is possible, socialism or barbarism.

	09-04-2002 00:28									#87
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Now, now, Komrat X, we don't law sole claim to communism. After all, there were communists before Marx. We just lay claim to communism based on scientifc theories, rather than morality. We are not communists just because we think it would be nice to live in a better world. We are communists because we know communism is a superior system, and it has been proven to be so. Under similar condition, the degenerated workers states always out perform capitalist ones. Under ideal conditions, such ass the United States has, we would bury them. We are communists because the internal logic of capitalism means that only one of two outcomes is possible, socialism or barbarism.

Point taken. But you have to admit that the pre-marxist communists don´t really have much to offer in terms of understanding of modern society.

	09-04-2002 00:32									#88
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Oh, I don't really think they have anything to offer us, other than an understanding of our own history and the development of our ideas.

But I'd honestly like to Comrade Miller try and argue otherwise. Rigorous intellectual debate is good for us, and at the very worst, it will be educational (as long as every stays nice).

	09-04-2002 00:35									#89
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Oh, I don't really think they have anything to offer us, other than an understanding of our own history and the development of our ideas.

I agree with you there

	09-04-2002 01:28									#90
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Let's say what we stand for.


for me it is:

-a Planned economical system in all aspects of economical life.
-an system that brings all people to similar working and living conditions.
-Equality between all people.
-Free education with acceptance to every faculty/department to fill up that workforce needed for future plans of development.
-Free Healthcare
-In the field of personal consumers , A number of products that would serve the same purpose , to let the consumer choose what they want to , and thus enjoy material freedom.
-Incentives in bonuses in payment for workers that work harder.
-Science promoted, Science honoured , Science tested. Because scholars are people too.
-Enviroment for the future of our children. If the enviroment goes against the interests of the Human race , ( and yes it could be , like those dams ) , I think the choice is clear.
-Everyone can have his own little private property. A book , Table, Chair , Car, and maybe even a small boat, when one gets older , and retires.
-Media owned by the government , run by itself. ( as the courts )
-Court system , a different branch of the government .

yes I think Jon is right here (again! ) Marx was correct on many points , but taking ideas from everywhere is the way.







neo-communism!